Explain why “Who is she playing the piano?” is incorrect
A teacher asked me this question and I am having a hard time finding a simple way to explain it for her to share with her students. I`m looking for the easiest way to explain it to her because she teaches Junior High School English in Japan.
The students were given a picture prompt and expected to answer with,
"Who is the girl playing the piano?"
Many of the students wrote,
"Who is she playing the piano?"
How would I explain, in a very simple way, why you cannot use she here?
Thank you so much for your help!
sentence-structure pronouns
New contributor
add a comment |
A teacher asked me this question and I am having a hard time finding a simple way to explain it for her to share with her students. I`m looking for the easiest way to explain it to her because she teaches Junior High School English in Japan.
The students were given a picture prompt and expected to answer with,
"Who is the girl playing the piano?"
Many of the students wrote,
"Who is she playing the piano?"
How would I explain, in a very simple way, why you cannot use she here?
Thank you so much for your help!
sentence-structure pronouns
New contributor
I have used similar language before; given the right scenario, this is a perfectly legitimate and valid usage.
– Paul Beverage
1 hour ago
add a comment |
A teacher asked me this question and I am having a hard time finding a simple way to explain it for her to share with her students. I`m looking for the easiest way to explain it to her because she teaches Junior High School English in Japan.
The students were given a picture prompt and expected to answer with,
"Who is the girl playing the piano?"
Many of the students wrote,
"Who is she playing the piano?"
How would I explain, in a very simple way, why you cannot use she here?
Thank you so much for your help!
sentence-structure pronouns
New contributor
A teacher asked me this question and I am having a hard time finding a simple way to explain it for her to share with her students. I`m looking for the easiest way to explain it to her because she teaches Junior High School English in Japan.
The students were given a picture prompt and expected to answer with,
"Who is the girl playing the piano?"
Many of the students wrote,
"Who is she playing the piano?"
How would I explain, in a very simple way, why you cannot use she here?
Thank you so much for your help!
sentence-structure pronouns
sentence-structure pronouns
New contributor
New contributor
edited yesterday
Maryam
1,36221735
1,36221735
New contributor
asked yesterday
HojoHojo
17325
17325
New contributor
New contributor
I have used similar language before; given the right scenario, this is a perfectly legitimate and valid usage.
– Paul Beverage
1 hour ago
add a comment |
I have used similar language before; given the right scenario, this is a perfectly legitimate and valid usage.
– Paul Beverage
1 hour ago
I have used similar language before; given the right scenario, this is a perfectly legitimate and valid usage.
– Paul Beverage
1 hour ago
I have used similar language before; given the right scenario, this is a perfectly legitimate and valid usage.
– Paul Beverage
1 hour ago
add a comment |
12 Answers
12
active
oldest
votes
I believe this sentence can sometimes be grammatically correct. It has to do with appositive phrases. The sentence structure is
Who is [noun phrase]?
Between the brackets, one can put anything that would also be grammatically correct in
[noun phrase] is my sister.
Now our noun phrase consists of the noun "she" followed by the appositive "playing the piano". The rules of grammar generally say that if "she" is not ambiguous (it is clear who "she" is), then use commas to set off the appositive phrase. So if there is only one woman in the room, you must write:
Who is she, playing the piano?
She, playing the piano, is my sister.
However, if there is ambiguity and it is resolved by the appositive phrase, we should not use commas. I think these are correct:
There are two women in that corner. She playing the piano is my sister, while she playing the viola is my mother.
There are two women in that corner. Who is she playing the piano?
Of course, it is an awkward and formal phrasing that a native English speaker probably wouldn't use. They would more likely say "the girl playing the piano". But that doesn't make it wrong.
New contributor
1
This is by far the best answer, because it clearly and simply addresses the actual grammar and semantics of the OP's question, without diverging into irrelevant issues or trying to "fix" the example that the OP used.
– Jed Schaaf
yesterday
5
There are two women in that corner. Who is she playing the piano?
by adding context (there are two women) the original sentence is clearer, which is fine because in speech there is always going to be context. But what I find objectionable is the assumption a native speaker would use "she" when it has been immediately established that the two people are women. In that scenario, I would ask: "Who is the one playing the piano?"
– Mari-Lou A
19 hours ago
4
Similarly, in the mother and sister scenario, I am sure the majority of native speakers would use the impersonal pronoun "one": "The one playing the piano is my sister while my mother is the one playing the viola"
– Mari-Lou A
19 hours ago
Native en-us. Even with the pause, the 'she' variant sounds odd to me. I think it's because the use of 'she' implies the speaker and listener already understand which specific person is being referenced, making 'playing the piano' redundant. 'the girl' on the other hand is usually ambiguous and requires more specificity, umless there's just one girl in the vicinity.
– MooseBoys
14 hours ago
2
I would not recommend this alternative in a ESL classroom, but for advanced students, "Who is she, playing the piano?" can be an expression both of sarcasm and distaste for the performer. (the emphasis on "she" and the comma after are critical.)
– Carl Witthoft
7 hours ago
|
show 2 more comments
You can use she, if you pause to make the meaning clear:
Who is she, playing the piano?
Without the pause, this is a kind of "garden path" sentence, because it leads you to a wrong expectation about how the sentence will end, creating a cognitive dissonance.
Once you hear "who is she playing..." you expect the sentence to end with something like "at tennis on Tuesday?", and the question to be about who she is playing against, rather than who she is to begin with.
Edit
As mentioned in comments, a more common way to express this in everyday speech would be
Who is that playing the piano?
However, I don't believe it would be fair to mark a student wrong for using she.
6
It should be a semicolon because it replaces that is.
– Mazura
yesterday
3
Your suggested sentence "Who is she playing "at" tennis on Tuesday?" is ungrammatical. It should be "Who is she playing tennis (with) on Tuesday?"
– Mari-Lou A
yesterday
3
No, "...playing at tennis" is fine. It makes clear that you're talking about the opponent (whereas in "..playing tennis with" it could also be a doubles partner)
– Rupe
yesterday
7
@Mazura A semicolon should be able to be substituted for either a comma or a period. "Playing the piano" can't stand on its own, so a semicolon is inappropriate here.
– Nuclear Wang
yesterday
10
@Mazura The "playing the piano" phrase is an appositive so separating it by a comma is the correct structure.
– Harrison Paine
yesterday
|
show 14 more comments
Personal pronouns don't want to be directly modified, especially in the subjective case.
We naturally say things like "That tall girl is in my class" and "The girl playing piano is very good". Nouns like "girl" work well with adjectives and participial phrases.
We don't naturally say things like "That tall she is in my class" or "She playing piano is very good". The pronoun "she" acts more like a complete and finished noun phrase than a simple noun. It doesn't play nicely with things like adjectives and participial phrases.
As a side note, Shakespeare gets away with a similar weird usage in the last lines of Sonnet 130: "And yet, by heaven, I think my love as rare | As any she belied with false compare."
– barbecue
yesterday
3
This is the only answer that actually answers the question, I believe. +1. Other answers seem to focus on the plausible semantics of the given sentence, not on the syntax of the intended meaning.
– justhalf
yesterday
That's true enough, @Barbecue, and it's reason enough to avoid saying that we never modify subjective personal pronouns. However, Shakespeare's work differs from what those junior high students are trying to do in two important ways. He wrote poetry in a now-obsolete dialect. They're writing simple contemporary prose.
– Gary Botnovcan
23 hours ago
2
+1, though it's a bit of an oversimplification; something like "she who is playing the piano" or "she of the long hair" is grammatical but literary, whereas the OP's *"she playing the piano" is out-and-out ungrammatical.
– ruakh
21 hours ago
1
@barbecue: I don't understand your comment. I don't see any similarity between the OP's example and your Shakespeare example. Which part/aspect of it strikes you as "a similar weird usage"?
– ruakh
21 hours ago
|
show 3 more comments
How would I explain, in a very simple way, why you cannot use she here?
You can use she but the meaning will be different.
Who is he fighting?
Who [is the person] he is fighting against?Who is she talking to?
Who [is the person or people] she is talking to?Who are they going to compete with?
Who [is the person or people] they are going to compete with?Who is she playing the piano? (odd sounding)
To fix this question you need a preposition.
a) Who is she playing the piano with?
b) With whom is she playing the piano? (very formal and rarely heard in speech)
c) Who is she playing the piano to?
d) To whom is she playing the piano?
Sentences b and d are a very formal way of asking a question and rarely heard or used in speech today but by some prescriptivists, it is considered to be the only grammatically correct structure.
1
This seems the only accurate answer of the bunch. In the questionable sentence, by default "she" refers to the object, not the subject. It's not ambiguous at all -- it's just weird in the given context.
– Andrew
yesterday
1
@Tim The OP already knows that the "correct" solution is "Who is the girl playing the piano?", so no point in me repeating that. My answer shows (hopefully) how the student's sentence (Who is she playing the piano?) could be made perfectly grammatical. I did, however, also warned that the meaning would change. I'm not saying the meanings are identical to the OP's.
– Mari-Lou A
yesterday
1
I would not suggest using "who" as object for explaining why OP's sentences work. "who" is subject (in some dialects also objects), "whom" is object, and this does not matter here at all.
– rexkogitans
yesterday
4
@rexkogitans the vast majority of native speakers, British, Australians and Americans will choose to say "who"
– Mari-Lou A
yesterday
1
@Mari-LouA - Spot on – unless you’re a grammar fiend. (In this discussion, I know who I’d want to go have a beer with.)
– J.R.♦
yesterday
|
show 5 more comments
I would explain it very simply: a pronoun is supposed to refer clearly to a noun, usually one that precedes the pronoun. The meaning of "pronoun" is something that takes the place of a noun.
An interrogative pronoun will normally not be preceded by a noun because of the way questions are formed in English, but the expectation is that the noun being referred to will follow the pronoun quickly. In the sentence recommended against, there is no noun at all for either "she" or "who."
Thus, the sentence is awkward and not highly idiomatic. I do not think it is ungrammatical, but it is hard to follow. It still would be a bit odd, but much clearer to say "Who is she that is playing the piano." Now the entire clause will be heard as a substitute for a specific noun.
add a comment |
I parse this as similar to:
Who does she think she is, playing the piano?
or
Who is she, to be playing the piano?
The original phrase suggests to me that the piano player is in some way out of place, and the emphasis is not just on the identity of the she
, but more on something less pleasant. Depending on the context of the phrase, it may be intended as discriminatory, or it may accidentally reflect a phrasing which has been used to discriminate in the past. Obviously in the context asked it is accidental, but that doesn't capture potential confusion if this sort of phrase is used in conversation.
That's how I read the original sentence, too - with an air of incredulity. +1, none of the other answers have addressed that subtle context.
– Nuclear Wang
yesterday
"Depending on the context of the quote..." We know the context: it is a statement by someone who is still learning English, so we shouldn't read subtle implications into it. Those would be accidental. All Hojo is asking for in this question is an easily understood explanation for why one of his quoted sentences is OK, and the other one isn't.
– Lorel C.
yesterday
My explanation is simple - there is a risk of people drawing inferences which are not intended when this construction is used by accident. This is why it should not be used even if it feels kind of OK to a non-native speaker. We already have answers which imply the phrase might be OK to use, and I think these don't tell the whole story.
– Sean Houlihane
yesterday
This highlights the difference between "Who's she?" and "Who is she?". The sentence in the OP sounds like the latter. The former might be complimentary.
– Aaron F
10 hours ago
add a comment |
The answers by The Photon and Gary Potnovcan explain it well, in my opinion, but I'd like to include and addendum focusing on the fact that you're teaching Japanese students.
English pronouns versus Japanese "pronouns"
Let me start quoting Wikipedia:
In linguistics, generativists and other structuralists suggest that the Japanese language does not have pronouns as such, since, unlike pronouns in most other languages that have them, these words are syntactically and morphologically identical to nouns.
So first of all, the confusion of the students is completely understandable because in Japanese the "pronouns" work exactly as nouns. The word the students were probably thinking of is 彼女 (kanojo), which is often translated as "she", but can simply mean "the woman" (excluding the speaker and the person being spoken to). In other words, 彼女 can literally be translated as "the girl" as well.
That said, I believe that, from a teaching perspective, this is a great opportunity to insist on the differences between English pronouns and Japanese "pronouns". Context is a very strong thing in Japanese, almost everything can be omitted and context will do its work. English on the other hand is not: for example, every English clause must have a subject. When there isn't a useful one, we put an "it" there. This is very odd for japanese English learners.
So, what exactly is a pronoun? I am not a linguist, but I'll try: "a pronoun is a word that refers to some other noun that was mentioned before, or is about to be mentioned, or can be inferred by context". If this is not strictly correct, recall that beginners are being taught here so minor nitpicks can be postponed.
In Japanese, we don't use anything like the above definition of pronoun, context itself works already. But in English, we need a word. English sentences have structures much more "solid". Instead of simply omitting everything that can be inferred, as is done in Japanese, in English those things are replaced by pronouns.
So, if we wanted to ask
Who is the girl that I am pointing to right now?
In Japanese we can let context do its work by asking
誰?(dare?)
which is literally just "who?", while in English we need to follow the structural boilerplate which requires a verb and at least a pronoun:
Who is she?
and here "she" is the word that carries the context inside it.
Hopefully this will help clearing things up with the students that might be thinking that she and the girl are exactly the same thing.
Well, both she and the girl probably are the same (かのじょ) :o)
– Will Crawford
5 hours ago
add a comment |
I don't know if this will help your students, but here goes. From the formal linguistics perspective, the intended question is constructed by starting with
play piano
Then you attach the interrogative pronoun 'who' as the subject
who play piano
So there's no place for another subject pronoun.
When you make it present tense and imperfective aspect, the verb structure becomes
be who playing piano
The subject 'who' raises to subject position and triggers agreement with 'be' to form
who is playing piano
It's possible that your students are misunderstanding 'who' as a complementizer instead of a pronoun. So in their incorrect sentence 'who is she playing the piano' the 'who' might be intended to correspond to 'whether' in
I wonder whether she is playing the piano
Theoretically, there's a wh-complementizer at the very top of the correct question structure, but it has no spoken content in English. It's similar to 'that' that can be left out here:
I think that she is playing the piano
I think she is playing the piano
Another possibility is that the students are attempting to form
Who is she that is playing the piano
and are trying to use a null complementizer instead of 'that' which isn't allowed in English here. As in, they are forming a phrase parallel to
I like the girl that is playing the piano (but not some other girl)
which you can rephrase without the 'that is'
I like the girl playing the piano (but not some other girl)
The students may also be simply misunderstanding the prompt: Are they supposed to ask a question about the girl's identity, or what she's doing?
Incidentally, questions in English are especially weird when they involve the subject, so I'm not surprised to see ESL students struggling with them. Among other weirdness, they don't trigger do-support:
*Who does be playing the piano
New contributor
Actually, I think you need to start with a question form.
– Lambie
yesterday
add a comment |
When you are asking about identity, it is a good idea to give the category of person,
- student
- teacher
- man, woman, child
- person
- your friend, their friend etc.
Who is she? [she is not identified at all]. She is my friend and a nice person.
Who is your friend playing the piano?
Who is that person playing the piano?
Who is that playing the piano? [that=that person]
That's the easiest answer I can come up with.
"Who is" introduces a question. It may be followed by:
- a noun: Who is John? Who is that man? Who is the winner?
- an adjective: Who is late?
- a verb: Who is coming to the party. [John is coming to the party.] Who plays the piano?
The pronoun "who" is a subject pronoun in the question "who is [plus verb or noun]", ergo, saying she is ungrammatical. You can't have "who" as an interrogative pronoun and she as a subject pronoun together.
Please note:
Who is playing the piano? Mary is playing the piano.
In the interrogative form, you do not use a pronoun when the identity is unknown.
Who is playing the piano? Mary is playing the piano.
versus- Who is Mary? She is a pianist.
- Who is she? She is Mary.
In the interrogative form, there is no **she (pronoun) because the pronoun here, the subject pronoun is "who".** Therefore, "Who is she playing the piano?" would be providing two subject pronouns.
Yeah, I can't even come up with an answer that good. Still, I think there's one "out there".
– Lorel C.
yesterday
@LorelC. I updated it after an overnight think.
– Lambie
yesterday
add a comment |
I think it's because a participle (such as playing the piano) can't modify a personal pronoun (such as she).
These are all correct:
- Who are you looking at? The girl playing the piano.
- Who is the girl playing the piano?
- The girl playing the piano is Sarah.
These are all incorrect:
- Who are you looking at? Her playing the piano.
- Who is she playing the piano?
- She playing the piano is Sarah.
add a comment |
My reason is:
- add a "she" in there, that's to much extra stuff
It would be a valid sentence if you say:
Who is playing the piano?
So i would expect the closest valid sentence to you invalid sentence to be:
Who is the women playing the piano?
Since "she", that could be good with:
Who is she?
But if you merge it with:
Who is playing the piano?
It wouldn't be valid, too many wordings in the sentence.
New contributor
The word "women" is a plural noun but "she" is singular and might refer to a young child, a teenager or an adult.
– Mari-Lou A
19 hours ago
Did you mean to write woman instead of women? (and too instead of to on the second line)
– Dawood ibn Kareem
4 hours ago
add a comment |
My two cents:
I've learned that there is a little difference left between using 'who,' and 'whom.' The easiest way (as a non-native speaker), I can say the students should use the girl instead of the pronoun to avoid ambiguity.
We often say,
She is buying me a doll.
Here, we have a subject, indirect object, and direct object.
If you remove the indirect object, the question could be formed as:
Who is she buying a doll?
There is me in the sentence and thus, the answer is me.
But, in your question, it becomes ambiguous.
Who is she playing the piano?
The answer could be *'she's playing her brother the piano.'*
Replacing the pronoun with a noun (girl) ends all the ambiguities. There, clearly, the subject is playing the piano...and of course for no one!
2
If one speaks the kind of English that still cares about the difference between who and whom, that should be, "Whom is she buying a doll?" (And I would probably not say even that; I'd say, "For whom is she buying a doll?") Likewise, I would never say, "She's playing her brother the piano," unless I were willing to say her brother is a piano.
– David K
yesterday
2
@DavidK I did not put a comma and that saved her brother from being the piano. Hope you get it ;)
– Maulik V♦
yesterday
+1, I'd add that the property you are describing, and the reason this sentence is wrong is because the it has the structure of using a ditransitive verb, but there is no transitive meaning. The fact that "play" can be a ditransitive verb (or have that meaning) makes the confusion escalate. It is still possible to decipher the meaning behind the sentence, but it takes rational effort - and most grammar is designed to avoid those situations.
– Stian Yttervik
yesterday
There's no me in that sentence, but there's an omitted for at the end, whom it is.
– Mazura
yesterday
If she has another brother who was turned into a guitar by a witch, the appositive in "her brother the piano" would not take a comma. I would just say she's playing the piano for her brother and save my listener (or reader) a lot of effort.
– David K
yesterday
|
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12 Answers
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I believe this sentence can sometimes be grammatically correct. It has to do with appositive phrases. The sentence structure is
Who is [noun phrase]?
Between the brackets, one can put anything that would also be grammatically correct in
[noun phrase] is my sister.
Now our noun phrase consists of the noun "she" followed by the appositive "playing the piano". The rules of grammar generally say that if "she" is not ambiguous (it is clear who "she" is), then use commas to set off the appositive phrase. So if there is only one woman in the room, you must write:
Who is she, playing the piano?
She, playing the piano, is my sister.
However, if there is ambiguity and it is resolved by the appositive phrase, we should not use commas. I think these are correct:
There are two women in that corner. She playing the piano is my sister, while she playing the viola is my mother.
There are two women in that corner. Who is she playing the piano?
Of course, it is an awkward and formal phrasing that a native English speaker probably wouldn't use. They would more likely say "the girl playing the piano". But that doesn't make it wrong.
New contributor
1
This is by far the best answer, because it clearly and simply addresses the actual grammar and semantics of the OP's question, without diverging into irrelevant issues or trying to "fix" the example that the OP used.
– Jed Schaaf
yesterday
5
There are two women in that corner. Who is she playing the piano?
by adding context (there are two women) the original sentence is clearer, which is fine because in speech there is always going to be context. But what I find objectionable is the assumption a native speaker would use "she" when it has been immediately established that the two people are women. In that scenario, I would ask: "Who is the one playing the piano?"
– Mari-Lou A
19 hours ago
4
Similarly, in the mother and sister scenario, I am sure the majority of native speakers would use the impersonal pronoun "one": "The one playing the piano is my sister while my mother is the one playing the viola"
– Mari-Lou A
19 hours ago
Native en-us. Even with the pause, the 'she' variant sounds odd to me. I think it's because the use of 'she' implies the speaker and listener already understand which specific person is being referenced, making 'playing the piano' redundant. 'the girl' on the other hand is usually ambiguous and requires more specificity, umless there's just one girl in the vicinity.
– MooseBoys
14 hours ago
2
I would not recommend this alternative in a ESL classroom, but for advanced students, "Who is she, playing the piano?" can be an expression both of sarcasm and distaste for the performer. (the emphasis on "she" and the comma after are critical.)
– Carl Witthoft
7 hours ago
|
show 2 more comments
I believe this sentence can sometimes be grammatically correct. It has to do with appositive phrases. The sentence structure is
Who is [noun phrase]?
Between the brackets, one can put anything that would also be grammatically correct in
[noun phrase] is my sister.
Now our noun phrase consists of the noun "she" followed by the appositive "playing the piano". The rules of grammar generally say that if "she" is not ambiguous (it is clear who "she" is), then use commas to set off the appositive phrase. So if there is only one woman in the room, you must write:
Who is she, playing the piano?
She, playing the piano, is my sister.
However, if there is ambiguity and it is resolved by the appositive phrase, we should not use commas. I think these are correct:
There are two women in that corner. She playing the piano is my sister, while she playing the viola is my mother.
There are two women in that corner. Who is she playing the piano?
Of course, it is an awkward and formal phrasing that a native English speaker probably wouldn't use. They would more likely say "the girl playing the piano". But that doesn't make it wrong.
New contributor
1
This is by far the best answer, because it clearly and simply addresses the actual grammar and semantics of the OP's question, without diverging into irrelevant issues or trying to "fix" the example that the OP used.
– Jed Schaaf
yesterday
5
There are two women in that corner. Who is she playing the piano?
by adding context (there are two women) the original sentence is clearer, which is fine because in speech there is always going to be context. But what I find objectionable is the assumption a native speaker would use "she" when it has been immediately established that the two people are women. In that scenario, I would ask: "Who is the one playing the piano?"
– Mari-Lou A
19 hours ago
4
Similarly, in the mother and sister scenario, I am sure the majority of native speakers would use the impersonal pronoun "one": "The one playing the piano is my sister while my mother is the one playing the viola"
– Mari-Lou A
19 hours ago
Native en-us. Even with the pause, the 'she' variant sounds odd to me. I think it's because the use of 'she' implies the speaker and listener already understand which specific person is being referenced, making 'playing the piano' redundant. 'the girl' on the other hand is usually ambiguous and requires more specificity, umless there's just one girl in the vicinity.
– MooseBoys
14 hours ago
2
I would not recommend this alternative in a ESL classroom, but for advanced students, "Who is she, playing the piano?" can be an expression both of sarcasm and distaste for the performer. (the emphasis on "she" and the comma after are critical.)
– Carl Witthoft
7 hours ago
|
show 2 more comments
I believe this sentence can sometimes be grammatically correct. It has to do with appositive phrases. The sentence structure is
Who is [noun phrase]?
Between the brackets, one can put anything that would also be grammatically correct in
[noun phrase] is my sister.
Now our noun phrase consists of the noun "she" followed by the appositive "playing the piano". The rules of grammar generally say that if "she" is not ambiguous (it is clear who "she" is), then use commas to set off the appositive phrase. So if there is only one woman in the room, you must write:
Who is she, playing the piano?
She, playing the piano, is my sister.
However, if there is ambiguity and it is resolved by the appositive phrase, we should not use commas. I think these are correct:
There are two women in that corner. She playing the piano is my sister, while she playing the viola is my mother.
There are two women in that corner. Who is she playing the piano?
Of course, it is an awkward and formal phrasing that a native English speaker probably wouldn't use. They would more likely say "the girl playing the piano". But that doesn't make it wrong.
New contributor
I believe this sentence can sometimes be grammatically correct. It has to do with appositive phrases. The sentence structure is
Who is [noun phrase]?
Between the brackets, one can put anything that would also be grammatically correct in
[noun phrase] is my sister.
Now our noun phrase consists of the noun "she" followed by the appositive "playing the piano". The rules of grammar generally say that if "she" is not ambiguous (it is clear who "she" is), then use commas to set off the appositive phrase. So if there is only one woman in the room, you must write:
Who is she, playing the piano?
She, playing the piano, is my sister.
However, if there is ambiguity and it is resolved by the appositive phrase, we should not use commas. I think these are correct:
There are two women in that corner. She playing the piano is my sister, while she playing the viola is my mother.
There are two women in that corner. Who is she playing the piano?
Of course, it is an awkward and formal phrasing that a native English speaker probably wouldn't use. They would more likely say "the girl playing the piano". But that doesn't make it wrong.
New contributor
New contributor
answered yesterday
usulusul
3462
3462
New contributor
New contributor
1
This is by far the best answer, because it clearly and simply addresses the actual grammar and semantics of the OP's question, without diverging into irrelevant issues or trying to "fix" the example that the OP used.
– Jed Schaaf
yesterday
5
There are two women in that corner. Who is she playing the piano?
by adding context (there are two women) the original sentence is clearer, which is fine because in speech there is always going to be context. But what I find objectionable is the assumption a native speaker would use "she" when it has been immediately established that the two people are women. In that scenario, I would ask: "Who is the one playing the piano?"
– Mari-Lou A
19 hours ago
4
Similarly, in the mother and sister scenario, I am sure the majority of native speakers would use the impersonal pronoun "one": "The one playing the piano is my sister while my mother is the one playing the viola"
– Mari-Lou A
19 hours ago
Native en-us. Even with the pause, the 'she' variant sounds odd to me. I think it's because the use of 'she' implies the speaker and listener already understand which specific person is being referenced, making 'playing the piano' redundant. 'the girl' on the other hand is usually ambiguous and requires more specificity, umless there's just one girl in the vicinity.
– MooseBoys
14 hours ago
2
I would not recommend this alternative in a ESL classroom, but for advanced students, "Who is she, playing the piano?" can be an expression both of sarcasm and distaste for the performer. (the emphasis on "she" and the comma after are critical.)
– Carl Witthoft
7 hours ago
|
show 2 more comments
1
This is by far the best answer, because it clearly and simply addresses the actual grammar and semantics of the OP's question, without diverging into irrelevant issues or trying to "fix" the example that the OP used.
– Jed Schaaf
yesterday
5
There are two women in that corner. Who is she playing the piano?
by adding context (there are two women) the original sentence is clearer, which is fine because in speech there is always going to be context. But what I find objectionable is the assumption a native speaker would use "she" when it has been immediately established that the two people are women. In that scenario, I would ask: "Who is the one playing the piano?"
– Mari-Lou A
19 hours ago
4
Similarly, in the mother and sister scenario, I am sure the majority of native speakers would use the impersonal pronoun "one": "The one playing the piano is my sister while my mother is the one playing the viola"
– Mari-Lou A
19 hours ago
Native en-us. Even with the pause, the 'she' variant sounds odd to me. I think it's because the use of 'she' implies the speaker and listener already understand which specific person is being referenced, making 'playing the piano' redundant. 'the girl' on the other hand is usually ambiguous and requires more specificity, umless there's just one girl in the vicinity.
– MooseBoys
14 hours ago
2
I would not recommend this alternative in a ESL classroom, but for advanced students, "Who is she, playing the piano?" can be an expression both of sarcasm and distaste for the performer. (the emphasis on "she" and the comma after are critical.)
– Carl Witthoft
7 hours ago
1
1
This is by far the best answer, because it clearly and simply addresses the actual grammar and semantics of the OP's question, without diverging into irrelevant issues or trying to "fix" the example that the OP used.
– Jed Schaaf
yesterday
This is by far the best answer, because it clearly and simply addresses the actual grammar and semantics of the OP's question, without diverging into irrelevant issues or trying to "fix" the example that the OP used.
– Jed Schaaf
yesterday
5
5
There are two women in that corner. Who is she playing the piano?
by adding context (there are two women) the original sentence is clearer, which is fine because in speech there is always going to be context. But what I find objectionable is the assumption a native speaker would use "she" when it has been immediately established that the two people are women. In that scenario, I would ask: "Who is the one playing the piano?"– Mari-Lou A
19 hours ago
There are two women in that corner. Who is she playing the piano?
by adding context (there are two women) the original sentence is clearer, which is fine because in speech there is always going to be context. But what I find objectionable is the assumption a native speaker would use "she" when it has been immediately established that the two people are women. In that scenario, I would ask: "Who is the one playing the piano?"– Mari-Lou A
19 hours ago
4
4
Similarly, in the mother and sister scenario, I am sure the majority of native speakers would use the impersonal pronoun "one": "The one playing the piano is my sister while my mother is the one playing the viola"
– Mari-Lou A
19 hours ago
Similarly, in the mother and sister scenario, I am sure the majority of native speakers would use the impersonal pronoun "one": "The one playing the piano is my sister while my mother is the one playing the viola"
– Mari-Lou A
19 hours ago
Native en-us. Even with the pause, the 'she' variant sounds odd to me. I think it's because the use of 'she' implies the speaker and listener already understand which specific person is being referenced, making 'playing the piano' redundant. 'the girl' on the other hand is usually ambiguous and requires more specificity, umless there's just one girl in the vicinity.
– MooseBoys
14 hours ago
Native en-us. Even with the pause, the 'she' variant sounds odd to me. I think it's because the use of 'she' implies the speaker and listener already understand which specific person is being referenced, making 'playing the piano' redundant. 'the girl' on the other hand is usually ambiguous and requires more specificity, umless there's just one girl in the vicinity.
– MooseBoys
14 hours ago
2
2
I would not recommend this alternative in a ESL classroom, but for advanced students, "Who is she, playing the piano?" can be an expression both of sarcasm and distaste for the performer. (the emphasis on "she" and the comma after are critical.)
– Carl Witthoft
7 hours ago
I would not recommend this alternative in a ESL classroom, but for advanced students, "Who is she, playing the piano?" can be an expression both of sarcasm and distaste for the performer. (the emphasis on "she" and the comma after are critical.)
– Carl Witthoft
7 hours ago
|
show 2 more comments
You can use she, if you pause to make the meaning clear:
Who is she, playing the piano?
Without the pause, this is a kind of "garden path" sentence, because it leads you to a wrong expectation about how the sentence will end, creating a cognitive dissonance.
Once you hear "who is she playing..." you expect the sentence to end with something like "at tennis on Tuesday?", and the question to be about who she is playing against, rather than who she is to begin with.
Edit
As mentioned in comments, a more common way to express this in everyday speech would be
Who is that playing the piano?
However, I don't believe it would be fair to mark a student wrong for using she.
6
It should be a semicolon because it replaces that is.
– Mazura
yesterday
3
Your suggested sentence "Who is she playing "at" tennis on Tuesday?" is ungrammatical. It should be "Who is she playing tennis (with) on Tuesday?"
– Mari-Lou A
yesterday
3
No, "...playing at tennis" is fine. It makes clear that you're talking about the opponent (whereas in "..playing tennis with" it could also be a doubles partner)
– Rupe
yesterday
7
@Mazura A semicolon should be able to be substituted for either a comma or a period. "Playing the piano" can't stand on its own, so a semicolon is inappropriate here.
– Nuclear Wang
yesterday
10
@Mazura The "playing the piano" phrase is an appositive so separating it by a comma is the correct structure.
– Harrison Paine
yesterday
|
show 14 more comments
You can use she, if you pause to make the meaning clear:
Who is she, playing the piano?
Without the pause, this is a kind of "garden path" sentence, because it leads you to a wrong expectation about how the sentence will end, creating a cognitive dissonance.
Once you hear "who is she playing..." you expect the sentence to end with something like "at tennis on Tuesday?", and the question to be about who she is playing against, rather than who she is to begin with.
Edit
As mentioned in comments, a more common way to express this in everyday speech would be
Who is that playing the piano?
However, I don't believe it would be fair to mark a student wrong for using she.
6
It should be a semicolon because it replaces that is.
– Mazura
yesterday
3
Your suggested sentence "Who is she playing "at" tennis on Tuesday?" is ungrammatical. It should be "Who is she playing tennis (with) on Tuesday?"
– Mari-Lou A
yesterday
3
No, "...playing at tennis" is fine. It makes clear that you're talking about the opponent (whereas in "..playing tennis with" it could also be a doubles partner)
– Rupe
yesterday
7
@Mazura A semicolon should be able to be substituted for either a comma or a period. "Playing the piano" can't stand on its own, so a semicolon is inappropriate here.
– Nuclear Wang
yesterday
10
@Mazura The "playing the piano" phrase is an appositive so separating it by a comma is the correct structure.
– Harrison Paine
yesterday
|
show 14 more comments
You can use she, if you pause to make the meaning clear:
Who is she, playing the piano?
Without the pause, this is a kind of "garden path" sentence, because it leads you to a wrong expectation about how the sentence will end, creating a cognitive dissonance.
Once you hear "who is she playing..." you expect the sentence to end with something like "at tennis on Tuesday?", and the question to be about who she is playing against, rather than who she is to begin with.
Edit
As mentioned in comments, a more common way to express this in everyday speech would be
Who is that playing the piano?
However, I don't believe it would be fair to mark a student wrong for using she.
You can use she, if you pause to make the meaning clear:
Who is she, playing the piano?
Without the pause, this is a kind of "garden path" sentence, because it leads you to a wrong expectation about how the sentence will end, creating a cognitive dissonance.
Once you hear "who is she playing..." you expect the sentence to end with something like "at tennis on Tuesday?", and the question to be about who she is playing against, rather than who she is to begin with.
Edit
As mentioned in comments, a more common way to express this in everyday speech would be
Who is that playing the piano?
However, I don't believe it would be fair to mark a student wrong for using she.
edited yesterday
answered yesterday
The PhotonThe Photon
5,9751915
5,9751915
6
It should be a semicolon because it replaces that is.
– Mazura
yesterday
3
Your suggested sentence "Who is she playing "at" tennis on Tuesday?" is ungrammatical. It should be "Who is she playing tennis (with) on Tuesday?"
– Mari-Lou A
yesterday
3
No, "...playing at tennis" is fine. It makes clear that you're talking about the opponent (whereas in "..playing tennis with" it could also be a doubles partner)
– Rupe
yesterday
7
@Mazura A semicolon should be able to be substituted for either a comma or a period. "Playing the piano" can't stand on its own, so a semicolon is inappropriate here.
– Nuclear Wang
yesterday
10
@Mazura The "playing the piano" phrase is an appositive so separating it by a comma is the correct structure.
– Harrison Paine
yesterday
|
show 14 more comments
6
It should be a semicolon because it replaces that is.
– Mazura
yesterday
3
Your suggested sentence "Who is she playing "at" tennis on Tuesday?" is ungrammatical. It should be "Who is she playing tennis (with) on Tuesday?"
– Mari-Lou A
yesterday
3
No, "...playing at tennis" is fine. It makes clear that you're talking about the opponent (whereas in "..playing tennis with" it could also be a doubles partner)
– Rupe
yesterday
7
@Mazura A semicolon should be able to be substituted for either a comma or a period. "Playing the piano" can't stand on its own, so a semicolon is inappropriate here.
– Nuclear Wang
yesterday
10
@Mazura The "playing the piano" phrase is an appositive so separating it by a comma is the correct structure.
– Harrison Paine
yesterday
6
6
It should be a semicolon because it replaces that is.
– Mazura
yesterday
It should be a semicolon because it replaces that is.
– Mazura
yesterday
3
3
Your suggested sentence "Who is she playing "at" tennis on Tuesday?" is ungrammatical. It should be "Who is she playing tennis (with) on Tuesday?"
– Mari-Lou A
yesterday
Your suggested sentence "Who is she playing "at" tennis on Tuesday?" is ungrammatical. It should be "Who is she playing tennis (with) on Tuesday?"
– Mari-Lou A
yesterday
3
3
No, "...playing at tennis" is fine. It makes clear that you're talking about the opponent (whereas in "..playing tennis with" it could also be a doubles partner)
– Rupe
yesterday
No, "...playing at tennis" is fine. It makes clear that you're talking about the opponent (whereas in "..playing tennis with" it could also be a doubles partner)
– Rupe
yesterday
7
7
@Mazura A semicolon should be able to be substituted for either a comma or a period. "Playing the piano" can't stand on its own, so a semicolon is inappropriate here.
– Nuclear Wang
yesterday
@Mazura A semicolon should be able to be substituted for either a comma or a period. "Playing the piano" can't stand on its own, so a semicolon is inappropriate here.
– Nuclear Wang
yesterday
10
10
@Mazura The "playing the piano" phrase is an appositive so separating it by a comma is the correct structure.
– Harrison Paine
yesterday
@Mazura The "playing the piano" phrase is an appositive so separating it by a comma is the correct structure.
– Harrison Paine
yesterday
|
show 14 more comments
Personal pronouns don't want to be directly modified, especially in the subjective case.
We naturally say things like "That tall girl is in my class" and "The girl playing piano is very good". Nouns like "girl" work well with adjectives and participial phrases.
We don't naturally say things like "That tall she is in my class" or "She playing piano is very good". The pronoun "she" acts more like a complete and finished noun phrase than a simple noun. It doesn't play nicely with things like adjectives and participial phrases.
As a side note, Shakespeare gets away with a similar weird usage in the last lines of Sonnet 130: "And yet, by heaven, I think my love as rare | As any she belied with false compare."
– barbecue
yesterday
3
This is the only answer that actually answers the question, I believe. +1. Other answers seem to focus on the plausible semantics of the given sentence, not on the syntax of the intended meaning.
– justhalf
yesterday
That's true enough, @Barbecue, and it's reason enough to avoid saying that we never modify subjective personal pronouns. However, Shakespeare's work differs from what those junior high students are trying to do in two important ways. He wrote poetry in a now-obsolete dialect. They're writing simple contemporary prose.
– Gary Botnovcan
23 hours ago
2
+1, though it's a bit of an oversimplification; something like "she who is playing the piano" or "she of the long hair" is grammatical but literary, whereas the OP's *"she playing the piano" is out-and-out ungrammatical.
– ruakh
21 hours ago
1
@barbecue: I don't understand your comment. I don't see any similarity between the OP's example and your Shakespeare example. Which part/aspect of it strikes you as "a similar weird usage"?
– ruakh
21 hours ago
|
show 3 more comments
Personal pronouns don't want to be directly modified, especially in the subjective case.
We naturally say things like "That tall girl is in my class" and "The girl playing piano is very good". Nouns like "girl" work well with adjectives and participial phrases.
We don't naturally say things like "That tall she is in my class" or "She playing piano is very good". The pronoun "she" acts more like a complete and finished noun phrase than a simple noun. It doesn't play nicely with things like adjectives and participial phrases.
As a side note, Shakespeare gets away with a similar weird usage in the last lines of Sonnet 130: "And yet, by heaven, I think my love as rare | As any she belied with false compare."
– barbecue
yesterday
3
This is the only answer that actually answers the question, I believe. +1. Other answers seem to focus on the plausible semantics of the given sentence, not on the syntax of the intended meaning.
– justhalf
yesterday
That's true enough, @Barbecue, and it's reason enough to avoid saying that we never modify subjective personal pronouns. However, Shakespeare's work differs from what those junior high students are trying to do in two important ways. He wrote poetry in a now-obsolete dialect. They're writing simple contemporary prose.
– Gary Botnovcan
23 hours ago
2
+1, though it's a bit of an oversimplification; something like "she who is playing the piano" or "she of the long hair" is grammatical but literary, whereas the OP's *"she playing the piano" is out-and-out ungrammatical.
– ruakh
21 hours ago
1
@barbecue: I don't understand your comment. I don't see any similarity between the OP's example and your Shakespeare example. Which part/aspect of it strikes you as "a similar weird usage"?
– ruakh
21 hours ago
|
show 3 more comments
Personal pronouns don't want to be directly modified, especially in the subjective case.
We naturally say things like "That tall girl is in my class" and "The girl playing piano is very good". Nouns like "girl" work well with adjectives and participial phrases.
We don't naturally say things like "That tall she is in my class" or "She playing piano is very good". The pronoun "she" acts more like a complete and finished noun phrase than a simple noun. It doesn't play nicely with things like adjectives and participial phrases.
Personal pronouns don't want to be directly modified, especially in the subjective case.
We naturally say things like "That tall girl is in my class" and "The girl playing piano is very good". Nouns like "girl" work well with adjectives and participial phrases.
We don't naturally say things like "That tall she is in my class" or "She playing piano is very good". The pronoun "she" acts more like a complete and finished noun phrase than a simple noun. It doesn't play nicely with things like adjectives and participial phrases.
answered yesterday
Gary BotnovcanGary Botnovcan
9,099927
9,099927
As a side note, Shakespeare gets away with a similar weird usage in the last lines of Sonnet 130: "And yet, by heaven, I think my love as rare | As any she belied with false compare."
– barbecue
yesterday
3
This is the only answer that actually answers the question, I believe. +1. Other answers seem to focus on the plausible semantics of the given sentence, not on the syntax of the intended meaning.
– justhalf
yesterday
That's true enough, @Barbecue, and it's reason enough to avoid saying that we never modify subjective personal pronouns. However, Shakespeare's work differs from what those junior high students are trying to do in two important ways. He wrote poetry in a now-obsolete dialect. They're writing simple contemporary prose.
– Gary Botnovcan
23 hours ago
2
+1, though it's a bit of an oversimplification; something like "she who is playing the piano" or "she of the long hair" is grammatical but literary, whereas the OP's *"she playing the piano" is out-and-out ungrammatical.
– ruakh
21 hours ago
1
@barbecue: I don't understand your comment. I don't see any similarity between the OP's example and your Shakespeare example. Which part/aspect of it strikes you as "a similar weird usage"?
– ruakh
21 hours ago
|
show 3 more comments
As a side note, Shakespeare gets away with a similar weird usage in the last lines of Sonnet 130: "And yet, by heaven, I think my love as rare | As any she belied with false compare."
– barbecue
yesterday
3
This is the only answer that actually answers the question, I believe. +1. Other answers seem to focus on the plausible semantics of the given sentence, not on the syntax of the intended meaning.
– justhalf
yesterday
That's true enough, @Barbecue, and it's reason enough to avoid saying that we never modify subjective personal pronouns. However, Shakespeare's work differs from what those junior high students are trying to do in two important ways. He wrote poetry in a now-obsolete dialect. They're writing simple contemporary prose.
– Gary Botnovcan
23 hours ago
2
+1, though it's a bit of an oversimplification; something like "she who is playing the piano" or "she of the long hair" is grammatical but literary, whereas the OP's *"she playing the piano" is out-and-out ungrammatical.
– ruakh
21 hours ago
1
@barbecue: I don't understand your comment. I don't see any similarity between the OP's example and your Shakespeare example. Which part/aspect of it strikes you as "a similar weird usage"?
– ruakh
21 hours ago
As a side note, Shakespeare gets away with a similar weird usage in the last lines of Sonnet 130: "And yet, by heaven, I think my love as rare | As any she belied with false compare."
– barbecue
yesterday
As a side note, Shakespeare gets away with a similar weird usage in the last lines of Sonnet 130: "And yet, by heaven, I think my love as rare | As any she belied with false compare."
– barbecue
yesterday
3
3
This is the only answer that actually answers the question, I believe. +1. Other answers seem to focus on the plausible semantics of the given sentence, not on the syntax of the intended meaning.
– justhalf
yesterday
This is the only answer that actually answers the question, I believe. +1. Other answers seem to focus on the plausible semantics of the given sentence, not on the syntax of the intended meaning.
– justhalf
yesterday
That's true enough, @Barbecue, and it's reason enough to avoid saying that we never modify subjective personal pronouns. However, Shakespeare's work differs from what those junior high students are trying to do in two important ways. He wrote poetry in a now-obsolete dialect. They're writing simple contemporary prose.
– Gary Botnovcan
23 hours ago
That's true enough, @Barbecue, and it's reason enough to avoid saying that we never modify subjective personal pronouns. However, Shakespeare's work differs from what those junior high students are trying to do in two important ways. He wrote poetry in a now-obsolete dialect. They're writing simple contemporary prose.
– Gary Botnovcan
23 hours ago
2
2
+1, though it's a bit of an oversimplification; something like "she who is playing the piano" or "she of the long hair" is grammatical but literary, whereas the OP's *"she playing the piano" is out-and-out ungrammatical.
– ruakh
21 hours ago
+1, though it's a bit of an oversimplification; something like "she who is playing the piano" or "she of the long hair" is grammatical but literary, whereas the OP's *"she playing the piano" is out-and-out ungrammatical.
– ruakh
21 hours ago
1
1
@barbecue: I don't understand your comment. I don't see any similarity between the OP's example and your Shakespeare example. Which part/aspect of it strikes you as "a similar weird usage"?
– ruakh
21 hours ago
@barbecue: I don't understand your comment. I don't see any similarity between the OP's example and your Shakespeare example. Which part/aspect of it strikes you as "a similar weird usage"?
– ruakh
21 hours ago
|
show 3 more comments
How would I explain, in a very simple way, why you cannot use she here?
You can use she but the meaning will be different.
Who is he fighting?
Who [is the person] he is fighting against?Who is she talking to?
Who [is the person or people] she is talking to?Who are they going to compete with?
Who [is the person or people] they are going to compete with?Who is she playing the piano? (odd sounding)
To fix this question you need a preposition.
a) Who is she playing the piano with?
b) With whom is she playing the piano? (very formal and rarely heard in speech)
c) Who is she playing the piano to?
d) To whom is she playing the piano?
Sentences b and d are a very formal way of asking a question and rarely heard or used in speech today but by some prescriptivists, it is considered to be the only grammatically correct structure.
1
This seems the only accurate answer of the bunch. In the questionable sentence, by default "she" refers to the object, not the subject. It's not ambiguous at all -- it's just weird in the given context.
– Andrew
yesterday
1
@Tim The OP already knows that the "correct" solution is "Who is the girl playing the piano?", so no point in me repeating that. My answer shows (hopefully) how the student's sentence (Who is she playing the piano?) could be made perfectly grammatical. I did, however, also warned that the meaning would change. I'm not saying the meanings are identical to the OP's.
– Mari-Lou A
yesterday
1
I would not suggest using "who" as object for explaining why OP's sentences work. "who" is subject (in some dialects also objects), "whom" is object, and this does not matter here at all.
– rexkogitans
yesterday
4
@rexkogitans the vast majority of native speakers, British, Australians and Americans will choose to say "who"
– Mari-Lou A
yesterday
1
@Mari-LouA - Spot on – unless you’re a grammar fiend. (In this discussion, I know who I’d want to go have a beer with.)
– J.R.♦
yesterday
|
show 5 more comments
How would I explain, in a very simple way, why you cannot use she here?
You can use she but the meaning will be different.
Who is he fighting?
Who [is the person] he is fighting against?Who is she talking to?
Who [is the person or people] she is talking to?Who are they going to compete with?
Who [is the person or people] they are going to compete with?Who is she playing the piano? (odd sounding)
To fix this question you need a preposition.
a) Who is she playing the piano with?
b) With whom is she playing the piano? (very formal and rarely heard in speech)
c) Who is she playing the piano to?
d) To whom is she playing the piano?
Sentences b and d are a very formal way of asking a question and rarely heard or used in speech today but by some prescriptivists, it is considered to be the only grammatically correct structure.
1
This seems the only accurate answer of the bunch. In the questionable sentence, by default "she" refers to the object, not the subject. It's not ambiguous at all -- it's just weird in the given context.
– Andrew
yesterday
1
@Tim The OP already knows that the "correct" solution is "Who is the girl playing the piano?", so no point in me repeating that. My answer shows (hopefully) how the student's sentence (Who is she playing the piano?) could be made perfectly grammatical. I did, however, also warned that the meaning would change. I'm not saying the meanings are identical to the OP's.
– Mari-Lou A
yesterday
1
I would not suggest using "who" as object for explaining why OP's sentences work. "who" is subject (in some dialects also objects), "whom" is object, and this does not matter here at all.
– rexkogitans
yesterday
4
@rexkogitans the vast majority of native speakers, British, Australians and Americans will choose to say "who"
– Mari-Lou A
yesterday
1
@Mari-LouA - Spot on – unless you’re a grammar fiend. (In this discussion, I know who I’d want to go have a beer with.)
– J.R.♦
yesterday
|
show 5 more comments
How would I explain, in a very simple way, why you cannot use she here?
You can use she but the meaning will be different.
Who is he fighting?
Who [is the person] he is fighting against?Who is she talking to?
Who [is the person or people] she is talking to?Who are they going to compete with?
Who [is the person or people] they are going to compete with?Who is she playing the piano? (odd sounding)
To fix this question you need a preposition.
a) Who is she playing the piano with?
b) With whom is she playing the piano? (very formal and rarely heard in speech)
c) Who is she playing the piano to?
d) To whom is she playing the piano?
Sentences b and d are a very formal way of asking a question and rarely heard or used in speech today but by some prescriptivists, it is considered to be the only grammatically correct structure.
How would I explain, in a very simple way, why you cannot use she here?
You can use she but the meaning will be different.
Who is he fighting?
Who [is the person] he is fighting against?Who is she talking to?
Who [is the person or people] she is talking to?Who are they going to compete with?
Who [is the person or people] they are going to compete with?Who is she playing the piano? (odd sounding)
To fix this question you need a preposition.
a) Who is she playing the piano with?
b) With whom is she playing the piano? (very formal and rarely heard in speech)
c) Who is she playing the piano to?
d) To whom is she playing the piano?
Sentences b and d are a very formal way of asking a question and rarely heard or used in speech today but by some prescriptivists, it is considered to be the only grammatically correct structure.
edited yesterday
answered yesterday
Mari-Lou AMari-Lou A
13.6k73976
13.6k73976
1
This seems the only accurate answer of the bunch. In the questionable sentence, by default "she" refers to the object, not the subject. It's not ambiguous at all -- it's just weird in the given context.
– Andrew
yesterday
1
@Tim The OP already knows that the "correct" solution is "Who is the girl playing the piano?", so no point in me repeating that. My answer shows (hopefully) how the student's sentence (Who is she playing the piano?) could be made perfectly grammatical. I did, however, also warned that the meaning would change. I'm not saying the meanings are identical to the OP's.
– Mari-Lou A
yesterday
1
I would not suggest using "who" as object for explaining why OP's sentences work. "who" is subject (in some dialects also objects), "whom" is object, and this does not matter here at all.
– rexkogitans
yesterday
4
@rexkogitans the vast majority of native speakers, British, Australians and Americans will choose to say "who"
– Mari-Lou A
yesterday
1
@Mari-LouA - Spot on – unless you’re a grammar fiend. (In this discussion, I know who I’d want to go have a beer with.)
– J.R.♦
yesterday
|
show 5 more comments
1
This seems the only accurate answer of the bunch. In the questionable sentence, by default "she" refers to the object, not the subject. It's not ambiguous at all -- it's just weird in the given context.
– Andrew
yesterday
1
@Tim The OP already knows that the "correct" solution is "Who is the girl playing the piano?", so no point in me repeating that. My answer shows (hopefully) how the student's sentence (Who is she playing the piano?) could be made perfectly grammatical. I did, however, also warned that the meaning would change. I'm not saying the meanings are identical to the OP's.
– Mari-Lou A
yesterday
1
I would not suggest using "who" as object for explaining why OP's sentences work. "who" is subject (in some dialects also objects), "whom" is object, and this does not matter here at all.
– rexkogitans
yesterday
4
@rexkogitans the vast majority of native speakers, British, Australians and Americans will choose to say "who"
– Mari-Lou A
yesterday
1
@Mari-LouA - Spot on – unless you’re a grammar fiend. (In this discussion, I know who I’d want to go have a beer with.)
– J.R.♦
yesterday
1
1
This seems the only accurate answer of the bunch. In the questionable sentence, by default "she" refers to the object, not the subject. It's not ambiguous at all -- it's just weird in the given context.
– Andrew
yesterday
This seems the only accurate answer of the bunch. In the questionable sentence, by default "she" refers to the object, not the subject. It's not ambiguous at all -- it's just weird in the given context.
– Andrew
yesterday
1
1
@Tim The OP already knows that the "correct" solution is "Who is the girl playing the piano?", so no point in me repeating that. My answer shows (hopefully) how the student's sentence (Who is she playing the piano?) could be made perfectly grammatical. I did, however, also warned that the meaning would change. I'm not saying the meanings are identical to the OP's.
– Mari-Lou A
yesterday
@Tim The OP already knows that the "correct" solution is "Who is the girl playing the piano?", so no point in me repeating that. My answer shows (hopefully) how the student's sentence (Who is she playing the piano?) could be made perfectly grammatical. I did, however, also warned that the meaning would change. I'm not saying the meanings are identical to the OP's.
– Mari-Lou A
yesterday
1
1
I would not suggest using "who" as object for explaining why OP's sentences work. "who" is subject (in some dialects also objects), "whom" is object, and this does not matter here at all.
– rexkogitans
yesterday
I would not suggest using "who" as object for explaining why OP's sentences work. "who" is subject (in some dialects also objects), "whom" is object, and this does not matter here at all.
– rexkogitans
yesterday
4
4
@rexkogitans the vast majority of native speakers, British, Australians and Americans will choose to say "who"
– Mari-Lou A
yesterday
@rexkogitans the vast majority of native speakers, British, Australians and Americans will choose to say "who"
– Mari-Lou A
yesterday
1
1
@Mari-LouA - Spot on – unless you’re a grammar fiend. (In this discussion, I know who I’d want to go have a beer with.)
– J.R.♦
yesterday
@Mari-LouA - Spot on – unless you’re a grammar fiend. (In this discussion, I know who I’d want to go have a beer with.)
– J.R.♦
yesterday
|
show 5 more comments
I would explain it very simply: a pronoun is supposed to refer clearly to a noun, usually one that precedes the pronoun. The meaning of "pronoun" is something that takes the place of a noun.
An interrogative pronoun will normally not be preceded by a noun because of the way questions are formed in English, but the expectation is that the noun being referred to will follow the pronoun quickly. In the sentence recommended against, there is no noun at all for either "she" or "who."
Thus, the sentence is awkward and not highly idiomatic. I do not think it is ungrammatical, but it is hard to follow. It still would be a bit odd, but much clearer to say "Who is she that is playing the piano." Now the entire clause will be heard as a substitute for a specific noun.
add a comment |
I would explain it very simply: a pronoun is supposed to refer clearly to a noun, usually one that precedes the pronoun. The meaning of "pronoun" is something that takes the place of a noun.
An interrogative pronoun will normally not be preceded by a noun because of the way questions are formed in English, but the expectation is that the noun being referred to will follow the pronoun quickly. In the sentence recommended against, there is no noun at all for either "she" or "who."
Thus, the sentence is awkward and not highly idiomatic. I do not think it is ungrammatical, but it is hard to follow. It still would be a bit odd, but much clearer to say "Who is she that is playing the piano." Now the entire clause will be heard as a substitute for a specific noun.
add a comment |
I would explain it very simply: a pronoun is supposed to refer clearly to a noun, usually one that precedes the pronoun. The meaning of "pronoun" is something that takes the place of a noun.
An interrogative pronoun will normally not be preceded by a noun because of the way questions are formed in English, but the expectation is that the noun being referred to will follow the pronoun quickly. In the sentence recommended against, there is no noun at all for either "she" or "who."
Thus, the sentence is awkward and not highly idiomatic. I do not think it is ungrammatical, but it is hard to follow. It still would be a bit odd, but much clearer to say "Who is she that is playing the piano." Now the entire clause will be heard as a substitute for a specific noun.
I would explain it very simply: a pronoun is supposed to refer clearly to a noun, usually one that precedes the pronoun. The meaning of "pronoun" is something that takes the place of a noun.
An interrogative pronoun will normally not be preceded by a noun because of the way questions are formed in English, but the expectation is that the noun being referred to will follow the pronoun quickly. In the sentence recommended against, there is no noun at all for either "she" or "who."
Thus, the sentence is awkward and not highly idiomatic. I do not think it is ungrammatical, but it is hard to follow. It still would be a bit odd, but much clearer to say "Who is she that is playing the piano." Now the entire clause will be heard as a substitute for a specific noun.
answered yesterday
Jeff MorrowJeff Morrow
9,6371024
9,6371024
add a comment |
add a comment |
I parse this as similar to:
Who does she think she is, playing the piano?
or
Who is she, to be playing the piano?
The original phrase suggests to me that the piano player is in some way out of place, and the emphasis is not just on the identity of the she
, but more on something less pleasant. Depending on the context of the phrase, it may be intended as discriminatory, or it may accidentally reflect a phrasing which has been used to discriminate in the past. Obviously in the context asked it is accidental, but that doesn't capture potential confusion if this sort of phrase is used in conversation.
That's how I read the original sentence, too - with an air of incredulity. +1, none of the other answers have addressed that subtle context.
– Nuclear Wang
yesterday
"Depending on the context of the quote..." We know the context: it is a statement by someone who is still learning English, so we shouldn't read subtle implications into it. Those would be accidental. All Hojo is asking for in this question is an easily understood explanation for why one of his quoted sentences is OK, and the other one isn't.
– Lorel C.
yesterday
My explanation is simple - there is a risk of people drawing inferences which are not intended when this construction is used by accident. This is why it should not be used even if it feels kind of OK to a non-native speaker. We already have answers which imply the phrase might be OK to use, and I think these don't tell the whole story.
– Sean Houlihane
yesterday
This highlights the difference between "Who's she?" and "Who is she?". The sentence in the OP sounds like the latter. The former might be complimentary.
– Aaron F
10 hours ago
add a comment |
I parse this as similar to:
Who does she think she is, playing the piano?
or
Who is she, to be playing the piano?
The original phrase suggests to me that the piano player is in some way out of place, and the emphasis is not just on the identity of the she
, but more on something less pleasant. Depending on the context of the phrase, it may be intended as discriminatory, or it may accidentally reflect a phrasing which has been used to discriminate in the past. Obviously in the context asked it is accidental, but that doesn't capture potential confusion if this sort of phrase is used in conversation.
That's how I read the original sentence, too - with an air of incredulity. +1, none of the other answers have addressed that subtle context.
– Nuclear Wang
yesterday
"Depending on the context of the quote..." We know the context: it is a statement by someone who is still learning English, so we shouldn't read subtle implications into it. Those would be accidental. All Hojo is asking for in this question is an easily understood explanation for why one of his quoted sentences is OK, and the other one isn't.
– Lorel C.
yesterday
My explanation is simple - there is a risk of people drawing inferences which are not intended when this construction is used by accident. This is why it should not be used even if it feels kind of OK to a non-native speaker. We already have answers which imply the phrase might be OK to use, and I think these don't tell the whole story.
– Sean Houlihane
yesterday
This highlights the difference between "Who's she?" and "Who is she?". The sentence in the OP sounds like the latter. The former might be complimentary.
– Aaron F
10 hours ago
add a comment |
I parse this as similar to:
Who does she think she is, playing the piano?
or
Who is she, to be playing the piano?
The original phrase suggests to me that the piano player is in some way out of place, and the emphasis is not just on the identity of the she
, but more on something less pleasant. Depending on the context of the phrase, it may be intended as discriminatory, or it may accidentally reflect a phrasing which has been used to discriminate in the past. Obviously in the context asked it is accidental, but that doesn't capture potential confusion if this sort of phrase is used in conversation.
I parse this as similar to:
Who does she think she is, playing the piano?
or
Who is she, to be playing the piano?
The original phrase suggests to me that the piano player is in some way out of place, and the emphasis is not just on the identity of the she
, but more on something less pleasant. Depending on the context of the phrase, it may be intended as discriminatory, or it may accidentally reflect a phrasing which has been used to discriminate in the past. Obviously in the context asked it is accidental, but that doesn't capture potential confusion if this sort of phrase is used in conversation.
edited 14 hours ago
answered yesterday
Sean HoulihaneSean Houlihane
33919
33919
That's how I read the original sentence, too - with an air of incredulity. +1, none of the other answers have addressed that subtle context.
– Nuclear Wang
yesterday
"Depending on the context of the quote..." We know the context: it is a statement by someone who is still learning English, so we shouldn't read subtle implications into it. Those would be accidental. All Hojo is asking for in this question is an easily understood explanation for why one of his quoted sentences is OK, and the other one isn't.
– Lorel C.
yesterday
My explanation is simple - there is a risk of people drawing inferences which are not intended when this construction is used by accident. This is why it should not be used even if it feels kind of OK to a non-native speaker. We already have answers which imply the phrase might be OK to use, and I think these don't tell the whole story.
– Sean Houlihane
yesterday
This highlights the difference between "Who's she?" and "Who is she?". The sentence in the OP sounds like the latter. The former might be complimentary.
– Aaron F
10 hours ago
add a comment |
That's how I read the original sentence, too - with an air of incredulity. +1, none of the other answers have addressed that subtle context.
– Nuclear Wang
yesterday
"Depending on the context of the quote..." We know the context: it is a statement by someone who is still learning English, so we shouldn't read subtle implications into it. Those would be accidental. All Hojo is asking for in this question is an easily understood explanation for why one of his quoted sentences is OK, and the other one isn't.
– Lorel C.
yesterday
My explanation is simple - there is a risk of people drawing inferences which are not intended when this construction is used by accident. This is why it should not be used even if it feels kind of OK to a non-native speaker. We already have answers which imply the phrase might be OK to use, and I think these don't tell the whole story.
– Sean Houlihane
yesterday
This highlights the difference between "Who's she?" and "Who is she?". The sentence in the OP sounds like the latter. The former might be complimentary.
– Aaron F
10 hours ago
That's how I read the original sentence, too - with an air of incredulity. +1, none of the other answers have addressed that subtle context.
– Nuclear Wang
yesterday
That's how I read the original sentence, too - with an air of incredulity. +1, none of the other answers have addressed that subtle context.
– Nuclear Wang
yesterday
"Depending on the context of the quote..." We know the context: it is a statement by someone who is still learning English, so we shouldn't read subtle implications into it. Those would be accidental. All Hojo is asking for in this question is an easily understood explanation for why one of his quoted sentences is OK, and the other one isn't.
– Lorel C.
yesterday
"Depending on the context of the quote..." We know the context: it is a statement by someone who is still learning English, so we shouldn't read subtle implications into it. Those would be accidental. All Hojo is asking for in this question is an easily understood explanation for why one of his quoted sentences is OK, and the other one isn't.
– Lorel C.
yesterday
My explanation is simple - there is a risk of people drawing inferences which are not intended when this construction is used by accident. This is why it should not be used even if it feels kind of OK to a non-native speaker. We already have answers which imply the phrase might be OK to use, and I think these don't tell the whole story.
– Sean Houlihane
yesterday
My explanation is simple - there is a risk of people drawing inferences which are not intended when this construction is used by accident. This is why it should not be used even if it feels kind of OK to a non-native speaker. We already have answers which imply the phrase might be OK to use, and I think these don't tell the whole story.
– Sean Houlihane
yesterday
This highlights the difference between "Who's she?" and "Who is she?". The sentence in the OP sounds like the latter. The former might be complimentary.
– Aaron F
10 hours ago
This highlights the difference between "Who's she?" and "Who is she?". The sentence in the OP sounds like the latter. The former might be complimentary.
– Aaron F
10 hours ago
add a comment |
The answers by The Photon and Gary Potnovcan explain it well, in my opinion, but I'd like to include and addendum focusing on the fact that you're teaching Japanese students.
English pronouns versus Japanese "pronouns"
Let me start quoting Wikipedia:
In linguistics, generativists and other structuralists suggest that the Japanese language does not have pronouns as such, since, unlike pronouns in most other languages that have them, these words are syntactically and morphologically identical to nouns.
So first of all, the confusion of the students is completely understandable because in Japanese the "pronouns" work exactly as nouns. The word the students were probably thinking of is 彼女 (kanojo), which is often translated as "she", but can simply mean "the woman" (excluding the speaker and the person being spoken to). In other words, 彼女 can literally be translated as "the girl" as well.
That said, I believe that, from a teaching perspective, this is a great opportunity to insist on the differences between English pronouns and Japanese "pronouns". Context is a very strong thing in Japanese, almost everything can be omitted and context will do its work. English on the other hand is not: for example, every English clause must have a subject. When there isn't a useful one, we put an "it" there. This is very odd for japanese English learners.
So, what exactly is a pronoun? I am not a linguist, but I'll try: "a pronoun is a word that refers to some other noun that was mentioned before, or is about to be mentioned, or can be inferred by context". If this is not strictly correct, recall that beginners are being taught here so minor nitpicks can be postponed.
In Japanese, we don't use anything like the above definition of pronoun, context itself works already. But in English, we need a word. English sentences have structures much more "solid". Instead of simply omitting everything that can be inferred, as is done in Japanese, in English those things are replaced by pronouns.
So, if we wanted to ask
Who is the girl that I am pointing to right now?
In Japanese we can let context do its work by asking
誰?(dare?)
which is literally just "who?", while in English we need to follow the structural boilerplate which requires a verb and at least a pronoun:
Who is she?
and here "she" is the word that carries the context inside it.
Hopefully this will help clearing things up with the students that might be thinking that she and the girl are exactly the same thing.
Well, both she and the girl probably are the same (かのじょ) :o)
– Will Crawford
5 hours ago
add a comment |
The answers by The Photon and Gary Potnovcan explain it well, in my opinion, but I'd like to include and addendum focusing on the fact that you're teaching Japanese students.
English pronouns versus Japanese "pronouns"
Let me start quoting Wikipedia:
In linguistics, generativists and other structuralists suggest that the Japanese language does not have pronouns as such, since, unlike pronouns in most other languages that have them, these words are syntactically and morphologically identical to nouns.
So first of all, the confusion of the students is completely understandable because in Japanese the "pronouns" work exactly as nouns. The word the students were probably thinking of is 彼女 (kanojo), which is often translated as "she", but can simply mean "the woman" (excluding the speaker and the person being spoken to). In other words, 彼女 can literally be translated as "the girl" as well.
That said, I believe that, from a teaching perspective, this is a great opportunity to insist on the differences between English pronouns and Japanese "pronouns". Context is a very strong thing in Japanese, almost everything can be omitted and context will do its work. English on the other hand is not: for example, every English clause must have a subject. When there isn't a useful one, we put an "it" there. This is very odd for japanese English learners.
So, what exactly is a pronoun? I am not a linguist, but I'll try: "a pronoun is a word that refers to some other noun that was mentioned before, or is about to be mentioned, or can be inferred by context". If this is not strictly correct, recall that beginners are being taught here so minor nitpicks can be postponed.
In Japanese, we don't use anything like the above definition of pronoun, context itself works already. But in English, we need a word. English sentences have structures much more "solid". Instead of simply omitting everything that can be inferred, as is done in Japanese, in English those things are replaced by pronouns.
So, if we wanted to ask
Who is the girl that I am pointing to right now?
In Japanese we can let context do its work by asking
誰?(dare?)
which is literally just "who?", while in English we need to follow the structural boilerplate which requires a verb and at least a pronoun:
Who is she?
and here "she" is the word that carries the context inside it.
Hopefully this will help clearing things up with the students that might be thinking that she and the girl are exactly the same thing.
Well, both she and the girl probably are the same (かのじょ) :o)
– Will Crawford
5 hours ago
add a comment |
The answers by The Photon and Gary Potnovcan explain it well, in my opinion, but I'd like to include and addendum focusing on the fact that you're teaching Japanese students.
English pronouns versus Japanese "pronouns"
Let me start quoting Wikipedia:
In linguistics, generativists and other structuralists suggest that the Japanese language does not have pronouns as such, since, unlike pronouns in most other languages that have them, these words are syntactically and morphologically identical to nouns.
So first of all, the confusion of the students is completely understandable because in Japanese the "pronouns" work exactly as nouns. The word the students were probably thinking of is 彼女 (kanojo), which is often translated as "she", but can simply mean "the woman" (excluding the speaker and the person being spoken to). In other words, 彼女 can literally be translated as "the girl" as well.
That said, I believe that, from a teaching perspective, this is a great opportunity to insist on the differences between English pronouns and Japanese "pronouns". Context is a very strong thing in Japanese, almost everything can be omitted and context will do its work. English on the other hand is not: for example, every English clause must have a subject. When there isn't a useful one, we put an "it" there. This is very odd for japanese English learners.
So, what exactly is a pronoun? I am not a linguist, but I'll try: "a pronoun is a word that refers to some other noun that was mentioned before, or is about to be mentioned, or can be inferred by context". If this is not strictly correct, recall that beginners are being taught here so minor nitpicks can be postponed.
In Japanese, we don't use anything like the above definition of pronoun, context itself works already. But in English, we need a word. English sentences have structures much more "solid". Instead of simply omitting everything that can be inferred, as is done in Japanese, in English those things are replaced by pronouns.
So, if we wanted to ask
Who is the girl that I am pointing to right now?
In Japanese we can let context do its work by asking
誰?(dare?)
which is literally just "who?", while in English we need to follow the structural boilerplate which requires a verb and at least a pronoun:
Who is she?
and here "she" is the word that carries the context inside it.
Hopefully this will help clearing things up with the students that might be thinking that she and the girl are exactly the same thing.
The answers by The Photon and Gary Potnovcan explain it well, in my opinion, but I'd like to include and addendum focusing on the fact that you're teaching Japanese students.
English pronouns versus Japanese "pronouns"
Let me start quoting Wikipedia:
In linguistics, generativists and other structuralists suggest that the Japanese language does not have pronouns as such, since, unlike pronouns in most other languages that have them, these words are syntactically and morphologically identical to nouns.
So first of all, the confusion of the students is completely understandable because in Japanese the "pronouns" work exactly as nouns. The word the students were probably thinking of is 彼女 (kanojo), which is often translated as "she", but can simply mean "the woman" (excluding the speaker and the person being spoken to). In other words, 彼女 can literally be translated as "the girl" as well.
That said, I believe that, from a teaching perspective, this is a great opportunity to insist on the differences between English pronouns and Japanese "pronouns". Context is a very strong thing in Japanese, almost everything can be omitted and context will do its work. English on the other hand is not: for example, every English clause must have a subject. When there isn't a useful one, we put an "it" there. This is very odd for japanese English learners.
So, what exactly is a pronoun? I am not a linguist, but I'll try: "a pronoun is a word that refers to some other noun that was mentioned before, or is about to be mentioned, or can be inferred by context". If this is not strictly correct, recall that beginners are being taught here so minor nitpicks can be postponed.
In Japanese, we don't use anything like the above definition of pronoun, context itself works already. But in English, we need a word. English sentences have structures much more "solid". Instead of simply omitting everything that can be inferred, as is done in Japanese, in English those things are replaced by pronouns.
So, if we wanted to ask
Who is the girl that I am pointing to right now?
In Japanese we can let context do its work by asking
誰?(dare?)
which is literally just "who?", while in English we need to follow the structural boilerplate which requires a verb and at least a pronoun:
Who is she?
and here "she" is the word that carries the context inside it.
Hopefully this will help clearing things up with the students that might be thinking that she and the girl are exactly the same thing.
answered 8 hours ago
Pedro APedro A
282211
282211
Well, both she and the girl probably are the same (かのじょ) :o)
– Will Crawford
5 hours ago
add a comment |
Well, both she and the girl probably are the same (かのじょ) :o)
– Will Crawford
5 hours ago
Well, both she and the girl probably are the same (かのじょ) :o)
– Will Crawford
5 hours ago
Well, both she and the girl probably are the same (かのじょ) :o)
– Will Crawford
5 hours ago
add a comment |
I don't know if this will help your students, but here goes. From the formal linguistics perspective, the intended question is constructed by starting with
play piano
Then you attach the interrogative pronoun 'who' as the subject
who play piano
So there's no place for another subject pronoun.
When you make it present tense and imperfective aspect, the verb structure becomes
be who playing piano
The subject 'who' raises to subject position and triggers agreement with 'be' to form
who is playing piano
It's possible that your students are misunderstanding 'who' as a complementizer instead of a pronoun. So in their incorrect sentence 'who is she playing the piano' the 'who' might be intended to correspond to 'whether' in
I wonder whether she is playing the piano
Theoretically, there's a wh-complementizer at the very top of the correct question structure, but it has no spoken content in English. It's similar to 'that' that can be left out here:
I think that she is playing the piano
I think she is playing the piano
Another possibility is that the students are attempting to form
Who is she that is playing the piano
and are trying to use a null complementizer instead of 'that' which isn't allowed in English here. As in, they are forming a phrase parallel to
I like the girl that is playing the piano (but not some other girl)
which you can rephrase without the 'that is'
I like the girl playing the piano (but not some other girl)
The students may also be simply misunderstanding the prompt: Are they supposed to ask a question about the girl's identity, or what she's doing?
Incidentally, questions in English are especially weird when they involve the subject, so I'm not surprised to see ESL students struggling with them. Among other weirdness, they don't trigger do-support:
*Who does be playing the piano
New contributor
Actually, I think you need to start with a question form.
– Lambie
yesterday
add a comment |
I don't know if this will help your students, but here goes. From the formal linguistics perspective, the intended question is constructed by starting with
play piano
Then you attach the interrogative pronoun 'who' as the subject
who play piano
So there's no place for another subject pronoun.
When you make it present tense and imperfective aspect, the verb structure becomes
be who playing piano
The subject 'who' raises to subject position and triggers agreement with 'be' to form
who is playing piano
It's possible that your students are misunderstanding 'who' as a complementizer instead of a pronoun. So in their incorrect sentence 'who is she playing the piano' the 'who' might be intended to correspond to 'whether' in
I wonder whether she is playing the piano
Theoretically, there's a wh-complementizer at the very top of the correct question structure, but it has no spoken content in English. It's similar to 'that' that can be left out here:
I think that she is playing the piano
I think she is playing the piano
Another possibility is that the students are attempting to form
Who is she that is playing the piano
and are trying to use a null complementizer instead of 'that' which isn't allowed in English here. As in, they are forming a phrase parallel to
I like the girl that is playing the piano (but not some other girl)
which you can rephrase without the 'that is'
I like the girl playing the piano (but not some other girl)
The students may also be simply misunderstanding the prompt: Are they supposed to ask a question about the girl's identity, or what she's doing?
Incidentally, questions in English are especially weird when they involve the subject, so I'm not surprised to see ESL students struggling with them. Among other weirdness, they don't trigger do-support:
*Who does be playing the piano
New contributor
Actually, I think you need to start with a question form.
– Lambie
yesterday
add a comment |
I don't know if this will help your students, but here goes. From the formal linguistics perspective, the intended question is constructed by starting with
play piano
Then you attach the interrogative pronoun 'who' as the subject
who play piano
So there's no place for another subject pronoun.
When you make it present tense and imperfective aspect, the verb structure becomes
be who playing piano
The subject 'who' raises to subject position and triggers agreement with 'be' to form
who is playing piano
It's possible that your students are misunderstanding 'who' as a complementizer instead of a pronoun. So in their incorrect sentence 'who is she playing the piano' the 'who' might be intended to correspond to 'whether' in
I wonder whether she is playing the piano
Theoretically, there's a wh-complementizer at the very top of the correct question structure, but it has no spoken content in English. It's similar to 'that' that can be left out here:
I think that she is playing the piano
I think she is playing the piano
Another possibility is that the students are attempting to form
Who is she that is playing the piano
and are trying to use a null complementizer instead of 'that' which isn't allowed in English here. As in, they are forming a phrase parallel to
I like the girl that is playing the piano (but not some other girl)
which you can rephrase without the 'that is'
I like the girl playing the piano (but not some other girl)
The students may also be simply misunderstanding the prompt: Are they supposed to ask a question about the girl's identity, or what she's doing?
Incidentally, questions in English are especially weird when they involve the subject, so I'm not surprised to see ESL students struggling with them. Among other weirdness, they don't trigger do-support:
*Who does be playing the piano
New contributor
I don't know if this will help your students, but here goes. From the formal linguistics perspective, the intended question is constructed by starting with
play piano
Then you attach the interrogative pronoun 'who' as the subject
who play piano
So there's no place for another subject pronoun.
When you make it present tense and imperfective aspect, the verb structure becomes
be who playing piano
The subject 'who' raises to subject position and triggers agreement with 'be' to form
who is playing piano
It's possible that your students are misunderstanding 'who' as a complementizer instead of a pronoun. So in their incorrect sentence 'who is she playing the piano' the 'who' might be intended to correspond to 'whether' in
I wonder whether she is playing the piano
Theoretically, there's a wh-complementizer at the very top of the correct question structure, but it has no spoken content in English. It's similar to 'that' that can be left out here:
I think that she is playing the piano
I think she is playing the piano
Another possibility is that the students are attempting to form
Who is she that is playing the piano
and are trying to use a null complementizer instead of 'that' which isn't allowed in English here. As in, they are forming a phrase parallel to
I like the girl that is playing the piano (but not some other girl)
which you can rephrase without the 'that is'
I like the girl playing the piano (but not some other girl)
The students may also be simply misunderstanding the prompt: Are they supposed to ask a question about the girl's identity, or what she's doing?
Incidentally, questions in English are especially weird when they involve the subject, so I'm not surprised to see ESL students struggling with them. Among other weirdness, they don't trigger do-support:
*Who does be playing the piano
New contributor
New contributor
answered yesterday
garrett mitchenergarrett mitchener
212
212
New contributor
New contributor
Actually, I think you need to start with a question form.
– Lambie
yesterday
add a comment |
Actually, I think you need to start with a question form.
– Lambie
yesterday
Actually, I think you need to start with a question form.
– Lambie
yesterday
Actually, I think you need to start with a question form.
– Lambie
yesterday
add a comment |
When you are asking about identity, it is a good idea to give the category of person,
- student
- teacher
- man, woman, child
- person
- your friend, their friend etc.
Who is she? [she is not identified at all]. She is my friend and a nice person.
Who is your friend playing the piano?
Who is that person playing the piano?
Who is that playing the piano? [that=that person]
That's the easiest answer I can come up with.
"Who is" introduces a question. It may be followed by:
- a noun: Who is John? Who is that man? Who is the winner?
- an adjective: Who is late?
- a verb: Who is coming to the party. [John is coming to the party.] Who plays the piano?
The pronoun "who" is a subject pronoun in the question "who is [plus verb or noun]", ergo, saying she is ungrammatical. You can't have "who" as an interrogative pronoun and she as a subject pronoun together.
Please note:
Who is playing the piano? Mary is playing the piano.
In the interrogative form, you do not use a pronoun when the identity is unknown.
Who is playing the piano? Mary is playing the piano.
versus- Who is Mary? She is a pianist.
- Who is she? She is Mary.
In the interrogative form, there is no **she (pronoun) because the pronoun here, the subject pronoun is "who".** Therefore, "Who is she playing the piano?" would be providing two subject pronouns.
Yeah, I can't even come up with an answer that good. Still, I think there's one "out there".
– Lorel C.
yesterday
@LorelC. I updated it after an overnight think.
– Lambie
yesterday
add a comment |
When you are asking about identity, it is a good idea to give the category of person,
- student
- teacher
- man, woman, child
- person
- your friend, their friend etc.
Who is she? [she is not identified at all]. She is my friend and a nice person.
Who is your friend playing the piano?
Who is that person playing the piano?
Who is that playing the piano? [that=that person]
That's the easiest answer I can come up with.
"Who is" introduces a question. It may be followed by:
- a noun: Who is John? Who is that man? Who is the winner?
- an adjective: Who is late?
- a verb: Who is coming to the party. [John is coming to the party.] Who plays the piano?
The pronoun "who" is a subject pronoun in the question "who is [plus verb or noun]", ergo, saying she is ungrammatical. You can't have "who" as an interrogative pronoun and she as a subject pronoun together.
Please note:
Who is playing the piano? Mary is playing the piano.
In the interrogative form, you do not use a pronoun when the identity is unknown.
Who is playing the piano? Mary is playing the piano.
versus- Who is Mary? She is a pianist.
- Who is she? She is Mary.
In the interrogative form, there is no **she (pronoun) because the pronoun here, the subject pronoun is "who".** Therefore, "Who is she playing the piano?" would be providing two subject pronouns.
Yeah, I can't even come up with an answer that good. Still, I think there's one "out there".
– Lorel C.
yesterday
@LorelC. I updated it after an overnight think.
– Lambie
yesterday
add a comment |
When you are asking about identity, it is a good idea to give the category of person,
- student
- teacher
- man, woman, child
- person
- your friend, their friend etc.
Who is she? [she is not identified at all]. She is my friend and a nice person.
Who is your friend playing the piano?
Who is that person playing the piano?
Who is that playing the piano? [that=that person]
That's the easiest answer I can come up with.
"Who is" introduces a question. It may be followed by:
- a noun: Who is John? Who is that man? Who is the winner?
- an adjective: Who is late?
- a verb: Who is coming to the party. [John is coming to the party.] Who plays the piano?
The pronoun "who" is a subject pronoun in the question "who is [plus verb or noun]", ergo, saying she is ungrammatical. You can't have "who" as an interrogative pronoun and she as a subject pronoun together.
Please note:
Who is playing the piano? Mary is playing the piano.
In the interrogative form, you do not use a pronoun when the identity is unknown.
Who is playing the piano? Mary is playing the piano.
versus- Who is Mary? She is a pianist.
- Who is she? She is Mary.
In the interrogative form, there is no **she (pronoun) because the pronoun here, the subject pronoun is "who".** Therefore, "Who is she playing the piano?" would be providing two subject pronouns.
When you are asking about identity, it is a good idea to give the category of person,
- student
- teacher
- man, woman, child
- person
- your friend, their friend etc.
Who is she? [she is not identified at all]. She is my friend and a nice person.
Who is your friend playing the piano?
Who is that person playing the piano?
Who is that playing the piano? [that=that person]
That's the easiest answer I can come up with.
"Who is" introduces a question. It may be followed by:
- a noun: Who is John? Who is that man? Who is the winner?
- an adjective: Who is late?
- a verb: Who is coming to the party. [John is coming to the party.] Who plays the piano?
The pronoun "who" is a subject pronoun in the question "who is [plus verb or noun]", ergo, saying she is ungrammatical. You can't have "who" as an interrogative pronoun and she as a subject pronoun together.
Please note:
Who is playing the piano? Mary is playing the piano.
In the interrogative form, you do not use a pronoun when the identity is unknown.
Who is playing the piano? Mary is playing the piano.
versus- Who is Mary? She is a pianist.
- Who is she? She is Mary.
In the interrogative form, there is no **she (pronoun) because the pronoun here, the subject pronoun is "who".** Therefore, "Who is she playing the piano?" would be providing two subject pronouns.
edited yesterday
answered yesterday
LambieLambie
14.7k1331
14.7k1331
Yeah, I can't even come up with an answer that good. Still, I think there's one "out there".
– Lorel C.
yesterday
@LorelC. I updated it after an overnight think.
– Lambie
yesterday
add a comment |
Yeah, I can't even come up with an answer that good. Still, I think there's one "out there".
– Lorel C.
yesterday
@LorelC. I updated it after an overnight think.
– Lambie
yesterday
Yeah, I can't even come up with an answer that good. Still, I think there's one "out there".
– Lorel C.
yesterday
Yeah, I can't even come up with an answer that good. Still, I think there's one "out there".
– Lorel C.
yesterday
@LorelC. I updated it after an overnight think.
– Lambie
yesterday
@LorelC. I updated it after an overnight think.
– Lambie
yesterday
add a comment |
I think it's because a participle (such as playing the piano) can't modify a personal pronoun (such as she).
These are all correct:
- Who are you looking at? The girl playing the piano.
- Who is the girl playing the piano?
- The girl playing the piano is Sarah.
These are all incorrect:
- Who are you looking at? Her playing the piano.
- Who is she playing the piano?
- She playing the piano is Sarah.
add a comment |
I think it's because a participle (such as playing the piano) can't modify a personal pronoun (such as she).
These are all correct:
- Who are you looking at? The girl playing the piano.
- Who is the girl playing the piano?
- The girl playing the piano is Sarah.
These are all incorrect:
- Who are you looking at? Her playing the piano.
- Who is she playing the piano?
- She playing the piano is Sarah.
add a comment |
I think it's because a participle (such as playing the piano) can't modify a personal pronoun (such as she).
These are all correct:
- Who are you looking at? The girl playing the piano.
- Who is the girl playing the piano?
- The girl playing the piano is Sarah.
These are all incorrect:
- Who are you looking at? Her playing the piano.
- Who is she playing the piano?
- She playing the piano is Sarah.
I think it's because a participle (such as playing the piano) can't modify a personal pronoun (such as she).
These are all correct:
- Who are you looking at? The girl playing the piano.
- Who is the girl playing the piano?
- The girl playing the piano is Sarah.
These are all incorrect:
- Who are you looking at? Her playing the piano.
- Who is she playing the piano?
- She playing the piano is Sarah.
answered yesterday
Tanner SwettTanner Swett
1,333610
1,333610
add a comment |
add a comment |
My reason is:
- add a "she" in there, that's to much extra stuff
It would be a valid sentence if you say:
Who is playing the piano?
So i would expect the closest valid sentence to you invalid sentence to be:
Who is the women playing the piano?
Since "she", that could be good with:
Who is she?
But if you merge it with:
Who is playing the piano?
It wouldn't be valid, too many wordings in the sentence.
New contributor
The word "women" is a plural noun but "she" is singular and might refer to a young child, a teenager or an adult.
– Mari-Lou A
19 hours ago
Did you mean to write woman instead of women? (and too instead of to on the second line)
– Dawood ibn Kareem
4 hours ago
add a comment |
My reason is:
- add a "she" in there, that's to much extra stuff
It would be a valid sentence if you say:
Who is playing the piano?
So i would expect the closest valid sentence to you invalid sentence to be:
Who is the women playing the piano?
Since "she", that could be good with:
Who is she?
But if you merge it with:
Who is playing the piano?
It wouldn't be valid, too many wordings in the sentence.
New contributor
The word "women" is a plural noun but "she" is singular and might refer to a young child, a teenager or an adult.
– Mari-Lou A
19 hours ago
Did you mean to write woman instead of women? (and too instead of to on the second line)
– Dawood ibn Kareem
4 hours ago
add a comment |
My reason is:
- add a "she" in there, that's to much extra stuff
It would be a valid sentence if you say:
Who is playing the piano?
So i would expect the closest valid sentence to you invalid sentence to be:
Who is the women playing the piano?
Since "she", that could be good with:
Who is she?
But if you merge it with:
Who is playing the piano?
It wouldn't be valid, too many wordings in the sentence.
New contributor
My reason is:
- add a "she" in there, that's to much extra stuff
It would be a valid sentence if you say:
Who is playing the piano?
So i would expect the closest valid sentence to you invalid sentence to be:
Who is the women playing the piano?
Since "she", that could be good with:
Who is she?
But if you merge it with:
Who is playing the piano?
It wouldn't be valid, too many wordings in the sentence.
New contributor
edited 21 hours ago
J.R.♦
98.2k8126244
98.2k8126244
New contributor
answered 21 hours ago
U9-ForwardU9-Forward
993
993
New contributor
New contributor
The word "women" is a plural noun but "she" is singular and might refer to a young child, a teenager or an adult.
– Mari-Lou A
19 hours ago
Did you mean to write woman instead of women? (and too instead of to on the second line)
– Dawood ibn Kareem
4 hours ago
add a comment |
The word "women" is a plural noun but "she" is singular and might refer to a young child, a teenager or an adult.
– Mari-Lou A
19 hours ago
Did you mean to write woman instead of women? (and too instead of to on the second line)
– Dawood ibn Kareem
4 hours ago
The word "women" is a plural noun but "she" is singular and might refer to a young child, a teenager or an adult.
– Mari-Lou A
19 hours ago
The word "women" is a plural noun but "she" is singular and might refer to a young child, a teenager or an adult.
– Mari-Lou A
19 hours ago
Did you mean to write woman instead of women? (and too instead of to on the second line)
– Dawood ibn Kareem
4 hours ago
Did you mean to write woman instead of women? (and too instead of to on the second line)
– Dawood ibn Kareem
4 hours ago
add a comment |
My two cents:
I've learned that there is a little difference left between using 'who,' and 'whom.' The easiest way (as a non-native speaker), I can say the students should use the girl instead of the pronoun to avoid ambiguity.
We often say,
She is buying me a doll.
Here, we have a subject, indirect object, and direct object.
If you remove the indirect object, the question could be formed as:
Who is she buying a doll?
There is me in the sentence and thus, the answer is me.
But, in your question, it becomes ambiguous.
Who is she playing the piano?
The answer could be *'she's playing her brother the piano.'*
Replacing the pronoun with a noun (girl) ends all the ambiguities. There, clearly, the subject is playing the piano...and of course for no one!
2
If one speaks the kind of English that still cares about the difference between who and whom, that should be, "Whom is she buying a doll?" (And I would probably not say even that; I'd say, "For whom is she buying a doll?") Likewise, I would never say, "She's playing her brother the piano," unless I were willing to say her brother is a piano.
– David K
yesterday
2
@DavidK I did not put a comma and that saved her brother from being the piano. Hope you get it ;)
– Maulik V♦
yesterday
+1, I'd add that the property you are describing, and the reason this sentence is wrong is because the it has the structure of using a ditransitive verb, but there is no transitive meaning. The fact that "play" can be a ditransitive verb (or have that meaning) makes the confusion escalate. It is still possible to decipher the meaning behind the sentence, but it takes rational effort - and most grammar is designed to avoid those situations.
– Stian Yttervik
yesterday
There's no me in that sentence, but there's an omitted for at the end, whom it is.
– Mazura
yesterday
If she has another brother who was turned into a guitar by a witch, the appositive in "her brother the piano" would not take a comma. I would just say she's playing the piano for her brother and save my listener (or reader) a lot of effort.
– David K
yesterday
|
show 1 more comment
My two cents:
I've learned that there is a little difference left between using 'who,' and 'whom.' The easiest way (as a non-native speaker), I can say the students should use the girl instead of the pronoun to avoid ambiguity.
We often say,
She is buying me a doll.
Here, we have a subject, indirect object, and direct object.
If you remove the indirect object, the question could be formed as:
Who is she buying a doll?
There is me in the sentence and thus, the answer is me.
But, in your question, it becomes ambiguous.
Who is she playing the piano?
The answer could be *'she's playing her brother the piano.'*
Replacing the pronoun with a noun (girl) ends all the ambiguities. There, clearly, the subject is playing the piano...and of course for no one!
2
If one speaks the kind of English that still cares about the difference between who and whom, that should be, "Whom is she buying a doll?" (And I would probably not say even that; I'd say, "For whom is she buying a doll?") Likewise, I would never say, "She's playing her brother the piano," unless I were willing to say her brother is a piano.
– David K
yesterday
2
@DavidK I did not put a comma and that saved her brother from being the piano. Hope you get it ;)
– Maulik V♦
yesterday
+1, I'd add that the property you are describing, and the reason this sentence is wrong is because the it has the structure of using a ditransitive verb, but there is no transitive meaning. The fact that "play" can be a ditransitive verb (or have that meaning) makes the confusion escalate. It is still possible to decipher the meaning behind the sentence, but it takes rational effort - and most grammar is designed to avoid those situations.
– Stian Yttervik
yesterday
There's no me in that sentence, but there's an omitted for at the end, whom it is.
– Mazura
yesterday
If she has another brother who was turned into a guitar by a witch, the appositive in "her brother the piano" would not take a comma. I would just say she's playing the piano for her brother and save my listener (or reader) a lot of effort.
– David K
yesterday
|
show 1 more comment
My two cents:
I've learned that there is a little difference left between using 'who,' and 'whom.' The easiest way (as a non-native speaker), I can say the students should use the girl instead of the pronoun to avoid ambiguity.
We often say,
She is buying me a doll.
Here, we have a subject, indirect object, and direct object.
If you remove the indirect object, the question could be formed as:
Who is she buying a doll?
There is me in the sentence and thus, the answer is me.
But, in your question, it becomes ambiguous.
Who is she playing the piano?
The answer could be *'she's playing her brother the piano.'*
Replacing the pronoun with a noun (girl) ends all the ambiguities. There, clearly, the subject is playing the piano...and of course for no one!
My two cents:
I've learned that there is a little difference left between using 'who,' and 'whom.' The easiest way (as a non-native speaker), I can say the students should use the girl instead of the pronoun to avoid ambiguity.
We often say,
She is buying me a doll.
Here, we have a subject, indirect object, and direct object.
If you remove the indirect object, the question could be formed as:
Who is she buying a doll?
There is me in the sentence and thus, the answer is me.
But, in your question, it becomes ambiguous.
Who is she playing the piano?
The answer could be *'she's playing her brother the piano.'*
Replacing the pronoun with a noun (girl) ends all the ambiguities. There, clearly, the subject is playing the piano...and of course for no one!
answered yesterday
Maulik V♦Maulik V
51.1k63212391
51.1k63212391
2
If one speaks the kind of English that still cares about the difference between who and whom, that should be, "Whom is she buying a doll?" (And I would probably not say even that; I'd say, "For whom is she buying a doll?") Likewise, I would never say, "She's playing her brother the piano," unless I were willing to say her brother is a piano.
– David K
yesterday
2
@DavidK I did not put a comma and that saved her brother from being the piano. Hope you get it ;)
– Maulik V♦
yesterday
+1, I'd add that the property you are describing, and the reason this sentence is wrong is because the it has the structure of using a ditransitive verb, but there is no transitive meaning. The fact that "play" can be a ditransitive verb (or have that meaning) makes the confusion escalate. It is still possible to decipher the meaning behind the sentence, but it takes rational effort - and most grammar is designed to avoid those situations.
– Stian Yttervik
yesterday
There's no me in that sentence, but there's an omitted for at the end, whom it is.
– Mazura
yesterday
If she has another brother who was turned into a guitar by a witch, the appositive in "her brother the piano" would not take a comma. I would just say she's playing the piano for her brother and save my listener (or reader) a lot of effort.
– David K
yesterday
|
show 1 more comment
2
If one speaks the kind of English that still cares about the difference between who and whom, that should be, "Whom is she buying a doll?" (And I would probably not say even that; I'd say, "For whom is she buying a doll?") Likewise, I would never say, "She's playing her brother the piano," unless I were willing to say her brother is a piano.
– David K
yesterday
2
@DavidK I did not put a comma and that saved her brother from being the piano. Hope you get it ;)
– Maulik V♦
yesterday
+1, I'd add that the property you are describing, and the reason this sentence is wrong is because the it has the structure of using a ditransitive verb, but there is no transitive meaning. The fact that "play" can be a ditransitive verb (or have that meaning) makes the confusion escalate. It is still possible to decipher the meaning behind the sentence, but it takes rational effort - and most grammar is designed to avoid those situations.
– Stian Yttervik
yesterday
There's no me in that sentence, but there's an omitted for at the end, whom it is.
– Mazura
yesterday
If she has another brother who was turned into a guitar by a witch, the appositive in "her brother the piano" would not take a comma. I would just say she's playing the piano for her brother and save my listener (or reader) a lot of effort.
– David K
yesterday
2
2
If one speaks the kind of English that still cares about the difference between who and whom, that should be, "Whom is she buying a doll?" (And I would probably not say even that; I'd say, "For whom is she buying a doll?") Likewise, I would never say, "She's playing her brother the piano," unless I were willing to say her brother is a piano.
– David K
yesterday
If one speaks the kind of English that still cares about the difference between who and whom, that should be, "Whom is she buying a doll?" (And I would probably not say even that; I'd say, "For whom is she buying a doll?") Likewise, I would never say, "She's playing her brother the piano," unless I were willing to say her brother is a piano.
– David K
yesterday
2
2
@DavidK I did not put a comma and that saved her brother from being the piano. Hope you get it ;)
– Maulik V♦
yesterday
@DavidK I did not put a comma and that saved her brother from being the piano. Hope you get it ;)
– Maulik V♦
yesterday
+1, I'd add that the property you are describing, and the reason this sentence is wrong is because the it has the structure of using a ditransitive verb, but there is no transitive meaning. The fact that "play" can be a ditransitive verb (or have that meaning) makes the confusion escalate. It is still possible to decipher the meaning behind the sentence, but it takes rational effort - and most grammar is designed to avoid those situations.
– Stian Yttervik
yesterday
+1, I'd add that the property you are describing, and the reason this sentence is wrong is because the it has the structure of using a ditransitive verb, but there is no transitive meaning. The fact that "play" can be a ditransitive verb (or have that meaning) makes the confusion escalate. It is still possible to decipher the meaning behind the sentence, but it takes rational effort - and most grammar is designed to avoid those situations.
– Stian Yttervik
yesterday
There's no me in that sentence, but there's an omitted for at the end, whom it is.
– Mazura
yesterday
There's no me in that sentence, but there's an omitted for at the end, whom it is.
– Mazura
yesterday
If she has another brother who was turned into a guitar by a witch, the appositive in "her brother the piano" would not take a comma. I would just say she's playing the piano for her brother and save my listener (or reader) a lot of effort.
– David K
yesterday
If she has another brother who was turned into a guitar by a witch, the appositive in "her brother the piano" would not take a comma. I would just say she's playing the piano for her brother and save my listener (or reader) a lot of effort.
– David K
yesterday
|
show 1 more comment
Hojo is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.
Hojo is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.
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I have used similar language before; given the right scenario, this is a perfectly legitimate and valid usage.
– Paul Beverage
1 hour ago