People in a rollercoaster or falling elevator feel the rapid descent, so why don't pilots in the cockpit?
Judging from the CVR transcript, the AF447 pilots didn't realize for most of the plunge that they were stalled and rapidly losing altitude.
Why don't pilots in the cockpit get the same sensation of falling down as people in a rollercoaster or a falling elevator ? Both are situations in which you would unmistakeably know you are falling. (If you have never experienced a rollercoaster descent, believe me, it's noticeable ;-). So why and how does it differ for the pilot in the cockpit ?
medical aircraft-physics g-forces human-factors af447-accident
|
show 3 more comments
Judging from the CVR transcript, the AF447 pilots didn't realize for most of the plunge that they were stalled and rapidly losing altitude.
Why don't pilots in the cockpit get the same sensation of falling down as people in a rollercoaster or a falling elevator ? Both are situations in which you would unmistakeably know you are falling. (If you have never experienced a rollercoaster descent, believe me, it's noticeable ;-). So why and how does it differ for the pilot in the cockpit ?
medical aircraft-physics g-forces human-factors af447-accident
13
You seem to assume managing an abnormal situation is natural. It actually requires a lot of training to discard feelings and rely only on instrument indications. Pilots have flown inverted without knowing it, or think they are flying inverted, while they are just flying upright. It can happen at any time, to anyone, when external references are lost, and in particular at night. It's called spatial disorientation. The "the head-up illusion" (p7) for instance can give the feeling of pitching up while the aircraft is accelerating down.
– mins
yesterday
You are making my point, actually. In an elevator you have zero spatial orientation, yet you would know unmistakeably that you are going/falling down.
– summerrain
yesterday
6
Your elevator comparison is biased, the elevator is falling at constant acceleration (compatible with our feeling of gravity), the problems arise when this acceleration either changes in direction, or in magnitude. The rollercoaster example is meaningful: Close your eyes, you won't know in which direction your are currently moving (and you will start to feel very bad).
– mins
yesterday
9
@summerrain I think you're conflating acceleration and velocity. Acceleration is the change in velocity over time. When you're in an object like an elevator, you feel a change in gravity from accelerating up or down. If you go up 100 stories in an elevator, you only feel a change in gravity while the elevator's velocity is changing (ie, starting or stopping). You don't feel anything while it's just moving up or down at a constant velocity.
– Josh Eller
yesterday
1
"AF447's steady cruise flight prior to the stall" -- Have you read the accounts? The aircraft climbed 3000 feet first, while being tossed around by turbulence and by the pilot's overcorrections, then stalled. I've been in a plane that was stalled (for practice), and I've also experienced turbulence; the sensations I recall during the stall were mild compared to some of that turbulence.
– David K
23 hours ago
|
show 3 more comments
Judging from the CVR transcript, the AF447 pilots didn't realize for most of the plunge that they were stalled and rapidly losing altitude.
Why don't pilots in the cockpit get the same sensation of falling down as people in a rollercoaster or a falling elevator ? Both are situations in which you would unmistakeably know you are falling. (If you have never experienced a rollercoaster descent, believe me, it's noticeable ;-). So why and how does it differ for the pilot in the cockpit ?
medical aircraft-physics g-forces human-factors af447-accident
Judging from the CVR transcript, the AF447 pilots didn't realize for most of the plunge that they were stalled and rapidly losing altitude.
Why don't pilots in the cockpit get the same sensation of falling down as people in a rollercoaster or a falling elevator ? Both are situations in which you would unmistakeably know you are falling. (If you have never experienced a rollercoaster descent, believe me, it's noticeable ;-). So why and how does it differ for the pilot in the cockpit ?
medical aircraft-physics g-forces human-factors af447-accident
medical aircraft-physics g-forces human-factors af447-accident
asked yesterday
summerrain
1,4131825
1,4131825
13
You seem to assume managing an abnormal situation is natural. It actually requires a lot of training to discard feelings and rely only on instrument indications. Pilots have flown inverted without knowing it, or think they are flying inverted, while they are just flying upright. It can happen at any time, to anyone, when external references are lost, and in particular at night. It's called spatial disorientation. The "the head-up illusion" (p7) for instance can give the feeling of pitching up while the aircraft is accelerating down.
– mins
yesterday
You are making my point, actually. In an elevator you have zero spatial orientation, yet you would know unmistakeably that you are going/falling down.
– summerrain
yesterday
6
Your elevator comparison is biased, the elevator is falling at constant acceleration (compatible with our feeling of gravity), the problems arise when this acceleration either changes in direction, or in magnitude. The rollercoaster example is meaningful: Close your eyes, you won't know in which direction your are currently moving (and you will start to feel very bad).
– mins
yesterday
9
@summerrain I think you're conflating acceleration and velocity. Acceleration is the change in velocity over time. When you're in an object like an elevator, you feel a change in gravity from accelerating up or down. If you go up 100 stories in an elevator, you only feel a change in gravity while the elevator's velocity is changing (ie, starting or stopping). You don't feel anything while it's just moving up or down at a constant velocity.
– Josh Eller
yesterday
1
"AF447's steady cruise flight prior to the stall" -- Have you read the accounts? The aircraft climbed 3000 feet first, while being tossed around by turbulence and by the pilot's overcorrections, then stalled. I've been in a plane that was stalled (for practice), and I've also experienced turbulence; the sensations I recall during the stall were mild compared to some of that turbulence.
– David K
23 hours ago
|
show 3 more comments
13
You seem to assume managing an abnormal situation is natural. It actually requires a lot of training to discard feelings and rely only on instrument indications. Pilots have flown inverted without knowing it, or think they are flying inverted, while they are just flying upright. It can happen at any time, to anyone, when external references are lost, and in particular at night. It's called spatial disorientation. The "the head-up illusion" (p7) for instance can give the feeling of pitching up while the aircraft is accelerating down.
– mins
yesterday
You are making my point, actually. In an elevator you have zero spatial orientation, yet you would know unmistakeably that you are going/falling down.
– summerrain
yesterday
6
Your elevator comparison is biased, the elevator is falling at constant acceleration (compatible with our feeling of gravity), the problems arise when this acceleration either changes in direction, or in magnitude. The rollercoaster example is meaningful: Close your eyes, you won't know in which direction your are currently moving (and you will start to feel very bad).
– mins
yesterday
9
@summerrain I think you're conflating acceleration and velocity. Acceleration is the change in velocity over time. When you're in an object like an elevator, you feel a change in gravity from accelerating up or down. If you go up 100 stories in an elevator, you only feel a change in gravity while the elevator's velocity is changing (ie, starting or stopping). You don't feel anything while it's just moving up or down at a constant velocity.
– Josh Eller
yesterday
1
"AF447's steady cruise flight prior to the stall" -- Have you read the accounts? The aircraft climbed 3000 feet first, while being tossed around by turbulence and by the pilot's overcorrections, then stalled. I've been in a plane that was stalled (for practice), and I've also experienced turbulence; the sensations I recall during the stall were mild compared to some of that turbulence.
– David K
23 hours ago
13
13
You seem to assume managing an abnormal situation is natural. It actually requires a lot of training to discard feelings and rely only on instrument indications. Pilots have flown inverted without knowing it, or think they are flying inverted, while they are just flying upright. It can happen at any time, to anyone, when external references are lost, and in particular at night. It's called spatial disorientation. The "the head-up illusion" (p7) for instance can give the feeling of pitching up while the aircraft is accelerating down.
– mins
yesterday
You seem to assume managing an abnormal situation is natural. It actually requires a lot of training to discard feelings and rely only on instrument indications. Pilots have flown inverted without knowing it, or think they are flying inverted, while they are just flying upright. It can happen at any time, to anyone, when external references are lost, and in particular at night. It's called spatial disorientation. The "the head-up illusion" (p7) for instance can give the feeling of pitching up while the aircraft is accelerating down.
– mins
yesterday
You are making my point, actually. In an elevator you have zero spatial orientation, yet you would know unmistakeably that you are going/falling down.
– summerrain
yesterday
You are making my point, actually. In an elevator you have zero spatial orientation, yet you would know unmistakeably that you are going/falling down.
– summerrain
yesterday
6
6
Your elevator comparison is biased, the elevator is falling at constant acceleration (compatible with our feeling of gravity), the problems arise when this acceleration either changes in direction, or in magnitude. The rollercoaster example is meaningful: Close your eyes, you won't know in which direction your are currently moving (and you will start to feel very bad).
– mins
yesterday
Your elevator comparison is biased, the elevator is falling at constant acceleration (compatible with our feeling of gravity), the problems arise when this acceleration either changes in direction, or in magnitude. The rollercoaster example is meaningful: Close your eyes, you won't know in which direction your are currently moving (and you will start to feel very bad).
– mins
yesterday
9
9
@summerrain I think you're conflating acceleration and velocity. Acceleration is the change in velocity over time. When you're in an object like an elevator, you feel a change in gravity from accelerating up or down. If you go up 100 stories in an elevator, you only feel a change in gravity while the elevator's velocity is changing (ie, starting or stopping). You don't feel anything while it's just moving up or down at a constant velocity.
– Josh Eller
yesterday
@summerrain I think you're conflating acceleration and velocity. Acceleration is the change in velocity over time. When you're in an object like an elevator, you feel a change in gravity from accelerating up or down. If you go up 100 stories in an elevator, you only feel a change in gravity while the elevator's velocity is changing (ie, starting or stopping). You don't feel anything while it's just moving up or down at a constant velocity.
– Josh Eller
yesterday
1
1
"AF447's steady cruise flight prior to the stall" -- Have you read the accounts? The aircraft climbed 3000 feet first, while being tossed around by turbulence and by the pilot's overcorrections, then stalled. I've been in a plane that was stalled (for practice), and I've also experienced turbulence; the sensations I recall during the stall were mild compared to some of that turbulence.
– David K
23 hours ago
"AF447's steady cruise flight prior to the stall" -- Have you read the accounts? The aircraft climbed 3000 feet first, while being tossed around by turbulence and by the pilot's overcorrections, then stalled. I've been in a plane that was stalled (for practice), and I've also experienced turbulence; the sensations I recall during the stall were mild compared to some of that turbulence.
– David K
23 hours ago
|
show 3 more comments
3 Answers
3
active
oldest
votes
You only feel the acceleration downward. In rollercoasted this sensation is maximized for maximum thrill. A stall isn't instant, Some parts of the wing can be stalled while the rest still provides proper lift. Once the airplane is near or at terminal velocity in a stall it will feel no different from regular straight and level flight.
The onset of the stall was paired with some turbulence which would mask the downward acceleration.
Pilots are also trained to ignore their own sensations because they can be misleading leading to spatial disorientation. You can be in a spiraling dive and still feel as if you are flying straight and level.
The aircraft encountered vertical accelerations between +0.5G and +1.7G.
– summerrain
yesterday
6
+1 for mentioning the spiral dive. In a 60 degree steep turn you can be pulling +2g and not notice
– Dave Gremlin
yesterday
6
There is also the lack of wind. Plus since the op mentioned elevators, might be worth pointing out you only feel the initial acceleration, after that you only feel vibration .
– Notts90
yesterday
1
@summerrain just because they experience momentary accelerations in that range doesn't mean they felt a constant "falling" acceleration. I don't know what the limit is, but you can be descending at a constant rate and not notice the less-than-1G especially if you are sitting. Close to zero or negative G's and of course you will notice because you will float, but as long as there is some constant positive G, you might not realize you are falling.
– JPhi1618
yesterday
3
I think this answer is onto the right track by mentioning that acceleration is what is felt, but fails to get into the areas of constant velocity or equilibrium which is really what is masking the sensation of descent.
– 2NinerRomeo
23 hours ago
|
show 1 more comment
You only feel the plunging sensation during the initial downward acceleration. Once stabilized at a constant rate of descent, things feel normal again. The other thing is, the amount of vertical acceleration from a stall type maneuver does not result in 0 or negative G, just less than 1. You'll feel getting light in the seat, you won't lift right out and if you are being assaulted by several stimuli at once, as this crew was, you won't even notice it.
You can easily make an airplane go 0 G or negative by getting some speed and pushing hard. It's called a "bunt". I can make a pencil float in front of my face for about 3-5 seconds in my airplane (push a little bit too hard, and all the crap on the floor ends up on my canopy) If you are able to nail the 0G point precisely, it's exactly the same sensation as being in a space craft, although short lived. A jet going 300 kt can keep it up for 30 sec, which is how they train astronauts for weightlessness.
add a comment |
You are forgetting one large difference between an aircraft moving through the air (still generating some lift), and an object in free-fall. Constant velocity in a gravity well (such as on the Earth) will cause you to still experience the acceleration due to gravity. It's when you're accelerating that you feel different.
Think of it this way - imagine driving over a hill in a car with cruise control. It's only as you're cresting the hill do you feel "weightless", because you are accelerating downward. On the way down the hill (assuming cruise control maintains speed downhill in this car), you will experience gravity normally.
New contributor
I don't think it's correct that you feel speed changes only. Falling at a constant rate, you'll notice you are lighter – especially once you start floating :-) as JPhi1618 mentioned
– summerrain
yesterday
10
@summerrain That's not true. If you're in a plane falling at a constant rate, you'd feel the exact same weight as normal. What you're probably thinking of is the 'vomit comet' planes, that astronauts use to train in weightlessness. Those planes aren't falling at a constant rate, they're accelerating towards the ground at 9.81 m/s^2. Since everything inside the plane is also accelerating towards the ground at the same rate due to the normal force of gravity, the people inside feel weightless. To be falling at a constant rate, the vertical acceleration would need to be zero.
– Josh Eller
yesterday
@summerrain Falling at any constant rate, even zero, means that the forces applied to you in all directions sum to zero. So precisely the same forces on you (those that, including gravity, sum to zero) can mean you are falling at any rate or not falling at all. This is one of the reasons pilots are specifically trained not to try to judge aircraft motion based on subjective force experiences -- flying by the seat of your pants is not encouraged.
– David Schwartz
yesterday
1
@summerrain Wrong. Falling at constant rate you will not only not feel lighter but if you were to weigh yourself on a scale your weight will not be lighter. The scale will only register you as lighter when speed changes. Weight is caused by acceleration, not speed. That's why gravity's physical unit is acceleration (m/s/s) not speed (m/s)
– slebetman
18 hours ago
add a comment |
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3 Answers
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3 Answers
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active
oldest
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You only feel the acceleration downward. In rollercoasted this sensation is maximized for maximum thrill. A stall isn't instant, Some parts of the wing can be stalled while the rest still provides proper lift. Once the airplane is near or at terminal velocity in a stall it will feel no different from regular straight and level flight.
The onset of the stall was paired with some turbulence which would mask the downward acceleration.
Pilots are also trained to ignore their own sensations because they can be misleading leading to spatial disorientation. You can be in a spiraling dive and still feel as if you are flying straight and level.
The aircraft encountered vertical accelerations between +0.5G and +1.7G.
– summerrain
yesterday
6
+1 for mentioning the spiral dive. In a 60 degree steep turn you can be pulling +2g and not notice
– Dave Gremlin
yesterday
6
There is also the lack of wind. Plus since the op mentioned elevators, might be worth pointing out you only feel the initial acceleration, after that you only feel vibration .
– Notts90
yesterday
1
@summerrain just because they experience momentary accelerations in that range doesn't mean they felt a constant "falling" acceleration. I don't know what the limit is, but you can be descending at a constant rate and not notice the less-than-1G especially if you are sitting. Close to zero or negative G's and of course you will notice because you will float, but as long as there is some constant positive G, you might not realize you are falling.
– JPhi1618
yesterday
3
I think this answer is onto the right track by mentioning that acceleration is what is felt, but fails to get into the areas of constant velocity or equilibrium which is really what is masking the sensation of descent.
– 2NinerRomeo
23 hours ago
|
show 1 more comment
You only feel the acceleration downward. In rollercoasted this sensation is maximized for maximum thrill. A stall isn't instant, Some parts of the wing can be stalled while the rest still provides proper lift. Once the airplane is near or at terminal velocity in a stall it will feel no different from regular straight and level flight.
The onset of the stall was paired with some turbulence which would mask the downward acceleration.
Pilots are also trained to ignore their own sensations because they can be misleading leading to spatial disorientation. You can be in a spiraling dive and still feel as if you are flying straight and level.
The aircraft encountered vertical accelerations between +0.5G and +1.7G.
– summerrain
yesterday
6
+1 for mentioning the spiral dive. In a 60 degree steep turn you can be pulling +2g and not notice
– Dave Gremlin
yesterday
6
There is also the lack of wind. Plus since the op mentioned elevators, might be worth pointing out you only feel the initial acceleration, after that you only feel vibration .
– Notts90
yesterday
1
@summerrain just because they experience momentary accelerations in that range doesn't mean they felt a constant "falling" acceleration. I don't know what the limit is, but you can be descending at a constant rate and not notice the less-than-1G especially if you are sitting. Close to zero or negative G's and of course you will notice because you will float, but as long as there is some constant positive G, you might not realize you are falling.
– JPhi1618
yesterday
3
I think this answer is onto the right track by mentioning that acceleration is what is felt, but fails to get into the areas of constant velocity or equilibrium which is really what is masking the sensation of descent.
– 2NinerRomeo
23 hours ago
|
show 1 more comment
You only feel the acceleration downward. In rollercoasted this sensation is maximized for maximum thrill. A stall isn't instant, Some parts of the wing can be stalled while the rest still provides proper lift. Once the airplane is near or at terminal velocity in a stall it will feel no different from regular straight and level flight.
The onset of the stall was paired with some turbulence which would mask the downward acceleration.
Pilots are also trained to ignore their own sensations because they can be misleading leading to spatial disorientation. You can be in a spiraling dive and still feel as if you are flying straight and level.
You only feel the acceleration downward. In rollercoasted this sensation is maximized for maximum thrill. A stall isn't instant, Some parts of the wing can be stalled while the rest still provides proper lift. Once the airplane is near or at terminal velocity in a stall it will feel no different from regular straight and level flight.
The onset of the stall was paired with some turbulence which would mask the downward acceleration.
Pilots are also trained to ignore their own sensations because they can be misleading leading to spatial disorientation. You can be in a spiraling dive and still feel as if you are flying straight and level.
answered yesterday
ratchet freak
23.5k464126
23.5k464126
The aircraft encountered vertical accelerations between +0.5G and +1.7G.
– summerrain
yesterday
6
+1 for mentioning the spiral dive. In a 60 degree steep turn you can be pulling +2g and not notice
– Dave Gremlin
yesterday
6
There is also the lack of wind. Plus since the op mentioned elevators, might be worth pointing out you only feel the initial acceleration, after that you only feel vibration .
– Notts90
yesterday
1
@summerrain just because they experience momentary accelerations in that range doesn't mean they felt a constant "falling" acceleration. I don't know what the limit is, but you can be descending at a constant rate and not notice the less-than-1G especially if you are sitting. Close to zero or negative G's and of course you will notice because you will float, but as long as there is some constant positive G, you might not realize you are falling.
– JPhi1618
yesterday
3
I think this answer is onto the right track by mentioning that acceleration is what is felt, but fails to get into the areas of constant velocity or equilibrium which is really what is masking the sensation of descent.
– 2NinerRomeo
23 hours ago
|
show 1 more comment
The aircraft encountered vertical accelerations between +0.5G and +1.7G.
– summerrain
yesterday
6
+1 for mentioning the spiral dive. In a 60 degree steep turn you can be pulling +2g and not notice
– Dave Gremlin
yesterday
6
There is also the lack of wind. Plus since the op mentioned elevators, might be worth pointing out you only feel the initial acceleration, after that you only feel vibration .
– Notts90
yesterday
1
@summerrain just because they experience momentary accelerations in that range doesn't mean they felt a constant "falling" acceleration. I don't know what the limit is, but you can be descending at a constant rate and not notice the less-than-1G especially if you are sitting. Close to zero or negative G's and of course you will notice because you will float, but as long as there is some constant positive G, you might not realize you are falling.
– JPhi1618
yesterday
3
I think this answer is onto the right track by mentioning that acceleration is what is felt, but fails to get into the areas of constant velocity or equilibrium which is really what is masking the sensation of descent.
– 2NinerRomeo
23 hours ago
The aircraft encountered vertical accelerations between +0.5G and +1.7G.
– summerrain
yesterday
The aircraft encountered vertical accelerations between +0.5G and +1.7G.
– summerrain
yesterday
6
6
+1 for mentioning the spiral dive. In a 60 degree steep turn you can be pulling +2g and not notice
– Dave Gremlin
yesterday
+1 for mentioning the spiral dive. In a 60 degree steep turn you can be pulling +2g and not notice
– Dave Gremlin
yesterday
6
6
There is also the lack of wind. Plus since the op mentioned elevators, might be worth pointing out you only feel the initial acceleration, after that you only feel vibration .
– Notts90
yesterday
There is also the lack of wind. Plus since the op mentioned elevators, might be worth pointing out you only feel the initial acceleration, after that you only feel vibration .
– Notts90
yesterday
1
1
@summerrain just because they experience momentary accelerations in that range doesn't mean they felt a constant "falling" acceleration. I don't know what the limit is, but you can be descending at a constant rate and not notice the less-than-1G especially if you are sitting. Close to zero or negative G's and of course you will notice because you will float, but as long as there is some constant positive G, you might not realize you are falling.
– JPhi1618
yesterday
@summerrain just because they experience momentary accelerations in that range doesn't mean they felt a constant "falling" acceleration. I don't know what the limit is, but you can be descending at a constant rate and not notice the less-than-1G especially if you are sitting. Close to zero or negative G's and of course you will notice because you will float, but as long as there is some constant positive G, you might not realize you are falling.
– JPhi1618
yesterday
3
3
I think this answer is onto the right track by mentioning that acceleration is what is felt, but fails to get into the areas of constant velocity or equilibrium which is really what is masking the sensation of descent.
– 2NinerRomeo
23 hours ago
I think this answer is onto the right track by mentioning that acceleration is what is felt, but fails to get into the areas of constant velocity or equilibrium which is really what is masking the sensation of descent.
– 2NinerRomeo
23 hours ago
|
show 1 more comment
You only feel the plunging sensation during the initial downward acceleration. Once stabilized at a constant rate of descent, things feel normal again. The other thing is, the amount of vertical acceleration from a stall type maneuver does not result in 0 or negative G, just less than 1. You'll feel getting light in the seat, you won't lift right out and if you are being assaulted by several stimuli at once, as this crew was, you won't even notice it.
You can easily make an airplane go 0 G or negative by getting some speed and pushing hard. It's called a "bunt". I can make a pencil float in front of my face for about 3-5 seconds in my airplane (push a little bit too hard, and all the crap on the floor ends up on my canopy) If you are able to nail the 0G point precisely, it's exactly the same sensation as being in a space craft, although short lived. A jet going 300 kt can keep it up for 30 sec, which is how they train astronauts for weightlessness.
add a comment |
You only feel the plunging sensation during the initial downward acceleration. Once stabilized at a constant rate of descent, things feel normal again. The other thing is, the amount of vertical acceleration from a stall type maneuver does not result in 0 or negative G, just less than 1. You'll feel getting light in the seat, you won't lift right out and if you are being assaulted by several stimuli at once, as this crew was, you won't even notice it.
You can easily make an airplane go 0 G or negative by getting some speed and pushing hard. It's called a "bunt". I can make a pencil float in front of my face for about 3-5 seconds in my airplane (push a little bit too hard, and all the crap on the floor ends up on my canopy) If you are able to nail the 0G point precisely, it's exactly the same sensation as being in a space craft, although short lived. A jet going 300 kt can keep it up for 30 sec, which is how they train astronauts for weightlessness.
add a comment |
You only feel the plunging sensation during the initial downward acceleration. Once stabilized at a constant rate of descent, things feel normal again. The other thing is, the amount of vertical acceleration from a stall type maneuver does not result in 0 or negative G, just less than 1. You'll feel getting light in the seat, you won't lift right out and if you are being assaulted by several stimuli at once, as this crew was, you won't even notice it.
You can easily make an airplane go 0 G or negative by getting some speed and pushing hard. It's called a "bunt". I can make a pencil float in front of my face for about 3-5 seconds in my airplane (push a little bit too hard, and all the crap on the floor ends up on my canopy) If you are able to nail the 0G point precisely, it's exactly the same sensation as being in a space craft, although short lived. A jet going 300 kt can keep it up for 30 sec, which is how they train astronauts for weightlessness.
You only feel the plunging sensation during the initial downward acceleration. Once stabilized at a constant rate of descent, things feel normal again. The other thing is, the amount of vertical acceleration from a stall type maneuver does not result in 0 or negative G, just less than 1. You'll feel getting light in the seat, you won't lift right out and if you are being assaulted by several stimuli at once, as this crew was, you won't even notice it.
You can easily make an airplane go 0 G or negative by getting some speed and pushing hard. It's called a "bunt". I can make a pencil float in front of my face for about 3-5 seconds in my airplane (push a little bit too hard, and all the crap on the floor ends up on my canopy) If you are able to nail the 0G point precisely, it's exactly the same sensation as being in a space craft, although short lived. A jet going 300 kt can keep it up for 30 sec, which is how they train astronauts for weightlessness.
answered yesterday
John K
14.7k11546
14.7k11546
add a comment |
add a comment |
You are forgetting one large difference between an aircraft moving through the air (still generating some lift), and an object in free-fall. Constant velocity in a gravity well (such as on the Earth) will cause you to still experience the acceleration due to gravity. It's when you're accelerating that you feel different.
Think of it this way - imagine driving over a hill in a car with cruise control. It's only as you're cresting the hill do you feel "weightless", because you are accelerating downward. On the way down the hill (assuming cruise control maintains speed downhill in this car), you will experience gravity normally.
New contributor
I don't think it's correct that you feel speed changes only. Falling at a constant rate, you'll notice you are lighter – especially once you start floating :-) as JPhi1618 mentioned
– summerrain
yesterday
10
@summerrain That's not true. If you're in a plane falling at a constant rate, you'd feel the exact same weight as normal. What you're probably thinking of is the 'vomit comet' planes, that astronauts use to train in weightlessness. Those planes aren't falling at a constant rate, they're accelerating towards the ground at 9.81 m/s^2. Since everything inside the plane is also accelerating towards the ground at the same rate due to the normal force of gravity, the people inside feel weightless. To be falling at a constant rate, the vertical acceleration would need to be zero.
– Josh Eller
yesterday
@summerrain Falling at any constant rate, even zero, means that the forces applied to you in all directions sum to zero. So precisely the same forces on you (those that, including gravity, sum to zero) can mean you are falling at any rate or not falling at all. This is one of the reasons pilots are specifically trained not to try to judge aircraft motion based on subjective force experiences -- flying by the seat of your pants is not encouraged.
– David Schwartz
yesterday
1
@summerrain Wrong. Falling at constant rate you will not only not feel lighter but if you were to weigh yourself on a scale your weight will not be lighter. The scale will only register you as lighter when speed changes. Weight is caused by acceleration, not speed. That's why gravity's physical unit is acceleration (m/s/s) not speed (m/s)
– slebetman
18 hours ago
add a comment |
You are forgetting one large difference between an aircraft moving through the air (still generating some lift), and an object in free-fall. Constant velocity in a gravity well (such as on the Earth) will cause you to still experience the acceleration due to gravity. It's when you're accelerating that you feel different.
Think of it this way - imagine driving over a hill in a car with cruise control. It's only as you're cresting the hill do you feel "weightless", because you are accelerating downward. On the way down the hill (assuming cruise control maintains speed downhill in this car), you will experience gravity normally.
New contributor
I don't think it's correct that you feel speed changes only. Falling at a constant rate, you'll notice you are lighter – especially once you start floating :-) as JPhi1618 mentioned
– summerrain
yesterday
10
@summerrain That's not true. If you're in a plane falling at a constant rate, you'd feel the exact same weight as normal. What you're probably thinking of is the 'vomit comet' planes, that astronauts use to train in weightlessness. Those planes aren't falling at a constant rate, they're accelerating towards the ground at 9.81 m/s^2. Since everything inside the plane is also accelerating towards the ground at the same rate due to the normal force of gravity, the people inside feel weightless. To be falling at a constant rate, the vertical acceleration would need to be zero.
– Josh Eller
yesterday
@summerrain Falling at any constant rate, even zero, means that the forces applied to you in all directions sum to zero. So precisely the same forces on you (those that, including gravity, sum to zero) can mean you are falling at any rate or not falling at all. This is one of the reasons pilots are specifically trained not to try to judge aircraft motion based on subjective force experiences -- flying by the seat of your pants is not encouraged.
– David Schwartz
yesterday
1
@summerrain Wrong. Falling at constant rate you will not only not feel lighter but if you were to weigh yourself on a scale your weight will not be lighter. The scale will only register you as lighter when speed changes. Weight is caused by acceleration, not speed. That's why gravity's physical unit is acceleration (m/s/s) not speed (m/s)
– slebetman
18 hours ago
add a comment |
You are forgetting one large difference between an aircraft moving through the air (still generating some lift), and an object in free-fall. Constant velocity in a gravity well (such as on the Earth) will cause you to still experience the acceleration due to gravity. It's when you're accelerating that you feel different.
Think of it this way - imagine driving over a hill in a car with cruise control. It's only as you're cresting the hill do you feel "weightless", because you are accelerating downward. On the way down the hill (assuming cruise control maintains speed downhill in this car), you will experience gravity normally.
New contributor
You are forgetting one large difference between an aircraft moving through the air (still generating some lift), and an object in free-fall. Constant velocity in a gravity well (such as on the Earth) will cause you to still experience the acceleration due to gravity. It's when you're accelerating that you feel different.
Think of it this way - imagine driving over a hill in a car with cruise control. It's only as you're cresting the hill do you feel "weightless", because you are accelerating downward. On the way down the hill (assuming cruise control maintains speed downhill in this car), you will experience gravity normally.
New contributor
New contributor
answered yesterday
Tyzoid
1612
1612
New contributor
New contributor
I don't think it's correct that you feel speed changes only. Falling at a constant rate, you'll notice you are lighter – especially once you start floating :-) as JPhi1618 mentioned
– summerrain
yesterday
10
@summerrain That's not true. If you're in a plane falling at a constant rate, you'd feel the exact same weight as normal. What you're probably thinking of is the 'vomit comet' planes, that astronauts use to train in weightlessness. Those planes aren't falling at a constant rate, they're accelerating towards the ground at 9.81 m/s^2. Since everything inside the plane is also accelerating towards the ground at the same rate due to the normal force of gravity, the people inside feel weightless. To be falling at a constant rate, the vertical acceleration would need to be zero.
– Josh Eller
yesterday
@summerrain Falling at any constant rate, even zero, means that the forces applied to you in all directions sum to zero. So precisely the same forces on you (those that, including gravity, sum to zero) can mean you are falling at any rate or not falling at all. This is one of the reasons pilots are specifically trained not to try to judge aircraft motion based on subjective force experiences -- flying by the seat of your pants is not encouraged.
– David Schwartz
yesterday
1
@summerrain Wrong. Falling at constant rate you will not only not feel lighter but if you were to weigh yourself on a scale your weight will not be lighter. The scale will only register you as lighter when speed changes. Weight is caused by acceleration, not speed. That's why gravity's physical unit is acceleration (m/s/s) not speed (m/s)
– slebetman
18 hours ago
add a comment |
I don't think it's correct that you feel speed changes only. Falling at a constant rate, you'll notice you are lighter – especially once you start floating :-) as JPhi1618 mentioned
– summerrain
yesterday
10
@summerrain That's not true. If you're in a plane falling at a constant rate, you'd feel the exact same weight as normal. What you're probably thinking of is the 'vomit comet' planes, that astronauts use to train in weightlessness. Those planes aren't falling at a constant rate, they're accelerating towards the ground at 9.81 m/s^2. Since everything inside the plane is also accelerating towards the ground at the same rate due to the normal force of gravity, the people inside feel weightless. To be falling at a constant rate, the vertical acceleration would need to be zero.
– Josh Eller
yesterday
@summerrain Falling at any constant rate, even zero, means that the forces applied to you in all directions sum to zero. So precisely the same forces on you (those that, including gravity, sum to zero) can mean you are falling at any rate or not falling at all. This is one of the reasons pilots are specifically trained not to try to judge aircraft motion based on subjective force experiences -- flying by the seat of your pants is not encouraged.
– David Schwartz
yesterday
1
@summerrain Wrong. Falling at constant rate you will not only not feel lighter but if you were to weigh yourself on a scale your weight will not be lighter. The scale will only register you as lighter when speed changes. Weight is caused by acceleration, not speed. That's why gravity's physical unit is acceleration (m/s/s) not speed (m/s)
– slebetman
18 hours ago
I don't think it's correct that you feel speed changes only. Falling at a constant rate, you'll notice you are lighter – especially once you start floating :-) as JPhi1618 mentioned
– summerrain
yesterday
I don't think it's correct that you feel speed changes only. Falling at a constant rate, you'll notice you are lighter – especially once you start floating :-) as JPhi1618 mentioned
– summerrain
yesterday
10
10
@summerrain That's not true. If you're in a plane falling at a constant rate, you'd feel the exact same weight as normal. What you're probably thinking of is the 'vomit comet' planes, that astronauts use to train in weightlessness. Those planes aren't falling at a constant rate, they're accelerating towards the ground at 9.81 m/s^2. Since everything inside the plane is also accelerating towards the ground at the same rate due to the normal force of gravity, the people inside feel weightless. To be falling at a constant rate, the vertical acceleration would need to be zero.
– Josh Eller
yesterday
@summerrain That's not true. If you're in a plane falling at a constant rate, you'd feel the exact same weight as normal. What you're probably thinking of is the 'vomit comet' planes, that astronauts use to train in weightlessness. Those planes aren't falling at a constant rate, they're accelerating towards the ground at 9.81 m/s^2. Since everything inside the plane is also accelerating towards the ground at the same rate due to the normal force of gravity, the people inside feel weightless. To be falling at a constant rate, the vertical acceleration would need to be zero.
– Josh Eller
yesterday
@summerrain Falling at any constant rate, even zero, means that the forces applied to you in all directions sum to zero. So precisely the same forces on you (those that, including gravity, sum to zero) can mean you are falling at any rate or not falling at all. This is one of the reasons pilots are specifically trained not to try to judge aircraft motion based on subjective force experiences -- flying by the seat of your pants is not encouraged.
– David Schwartz
yesterday
@summerrain Falling at any constant rate, even zero, means that the forces applied to you in all directions sum to zero. So precisely the same forces on you (those that, including gravity, sum to zero) can mean you are falling at any rate or not falling at all. This is one of the reasons pilots are specifically trained not to try to judge aircraft motion based on subjective force experiences -- flying by the seat of your pants is not encouraged.
– David Schwartz
yesterday
1
1
@summerrain Wrong. Falling at constant rate you will not only not feel lighter but if you were to weigh yourself on a scale your weight will not be lighter. The scale will only register you as lighter when speed changes. Weight is caused by acceleration, not speed. That's why gravity's physical unit is acceleration (m/s/s) not speed (m/s)
– slebetman
18 hours ago
@summerrain Wrong. Falling at constant rate you will not only not feel lighter but if you were to weigh yourself on a scale your weight will not be lighter. The scale will only register you as lighter when speed changes. Weight is caused by acceleration, not speed. That's why gravity's physical unit is acceleration (m/s/s) not speed (m/s)
– slebetman
18 hours ago
add a comment |
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13
You seem to assume managing an abnormal situation is natural. It actually requires a lot of training to discard feelings and rely only on instrument indications. Pilots have flown inverted without knowing it, or think they are flying inverted, while they are just flying upright. It can happen at any time, to anyone, when external references are lost, and in particular at night. It's called spatial disorientation. The "the head-up illusion" (p7) for instance can give the feeling of pitching up while the aircraft is accelerating down.
– mins
yesterday
You are making my point, actually. In an elevator you have zero spatial orientation, yet you would know unmistakeably that you are going/falling down.
– summerrain
yesterday
6
Your elevator comparison is biased, the elevator is falling at constant acceleration (compatible with our feeling of gravity), the problems arise when this acceleration either changes in direction, or in magnitude. The rollercoaster example is meaningful: Close your eyes, you won't know in which direction your are currently moving (and you will start to feel very bad).
– mins
yesterday
9
@summerrain I think you're conflating acceleration and velocity. Acceleration is the change in velocity over time. When you're in an object like an elevator, you feel a change in gravity from accelerating up or down. If you go up 100 stories in an elevator, you only feel a change in gravity while the elevator's velocity is changing (ie, starting or stopping). You don't feel anything while it's just moving up or down at a constant velocity.
– Josh Eller
yesterday
1
"AF447's steady cruise flight prior to the stall" -- Have you read the accounts? The aircraft climbed 3000 feet first, while being tossed around by turbulence and by the pilot's overcorrections, then stalled. I've been in a plane that was stalled (for practice), and I've also experienced turbulence; the sensations I recall during the stall were mild compared to some of that turbulence.
– David K
23 hours ago