The use of footnotes to translate foreign words in a novel












8














I'm writing a fantasy novel and one of my characters speaks in English, but sometimes utters single words in an ancient dead language, and I don't want to abusively use that language.



For example:




"You're going to be dead SAHU²!"




Is using a footnote a good idea, since the words are not too many? Or is it preferable to write the translation in italic, like:




"You're going to be dead SAHU! pig."











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  • 5




    Possible duplicate of What's the best way to show a foreign language in a manuscript?
    – Lauren Ipsum
    yesterday






  • 3




    You could have one character remark “You are the only person I know who swears in Sanskrit.”
    – Rasdashan
    yesterday






  • 5




    Obligatory xkcd.
    – chrylis
    yesterday






  • 2




    @LaurenIpsum While the answers to the other question provide helpful information for this question also, this question specifically asks about footnotes, a topic that the other question and its answers do not explicitly address. I therefore propose not to close this question, as it is not a duplicate.
    – user57423
    yesterday






  • 1




    The main question is why do you need a swearword in a foreign language at all? The snippet could be reworded as: "You are going to be dead, <i>pig</i>" she said, hissing through the syllables of the most vulgar word that her mother-tongue had assigned to sows since the dawn of time.
    – NofP
    yesterday
















8














I'm writing a fantasy novel and one of my characters speaks in English, but sometimes utters single words in an ancient dead language, and I don't want to abusively use that language.



For example:




"You're going to be dead SAHU²!"




Is using a footnote a good idea, since the words are not too many? Or is it preferable to write the translation in italic, like:




"You're going to be dead SAHU! pig."











share|improve this question









New contributor




vanity is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
















  • 5




    Possible duplicate of What's the best way to show a foreign language in a manuscript?
    – Lauren Ipsum
    yesterday






  • 3




    You could have one character remark “You are the only person I know who swears in Sanskrit.”
    – Rasdashan
    yesterday






  • 5




    Obligatory xkcd.
    – chrylis
    yesterday






  • 2




    @LaurenIpsum While the answers to the other question provide helpful information for this question also, this question specifically asks about footnotes, a topic that the other question and its answers do not explicitly address. I therefore propose not to close this question, as it is not a duplicate.
    – user57423
    yesterday






  • 1




    The main question is why do you need a swearword in a foreign language at all? The snippet could be reworded as: "You are going to be dead, <i>pig</i>" she said, hissing through the syllables of the most vulgar word that her mother-tongue had assigned to sows since the dawn of time.
    – NofP
    yesterday














8












8








8







I'm writing a fantasy novel and one of my characters speaks in English, but sometimes utters single words in an ancient dead language, and I don't want to abusively use that language.



For example:




"You're going to be dead SAHU²!"




Is using a footnote a good idea, since the words are not too many? Or is it preferable to write the translation in italic, like:




"You're going to be dead SAHU! pig."











share|improve this question









New contributor




vanity is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.











I'm writing a fantasy novel and one of my characters speaks in English, but sometimes utters single words in an ancient dead language, and I don't want to abusively use that language.



For example:




"You're going to be dead SAHU²!"




Is using a footnote a good idea, since the words are not too many? Or is it preferable to write the translation in italic, like:




"You're going to be dead SAHU! pig."








fiction language footnotes






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edited yesterday









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  • 5




    Possible duplicate of What's the best way to show a foreign language in a manuscript?
    – Lauren Ipsum
    yesterday






  • 3




    You could have one character remark “You are the only person I know who swears in Sanskrit.”
    – Rasdashan
    yesterday






  • 5




    Obligatory xkcd.
    – chrylis
    yesterday






  • 2




    @LaurenIpsum While the answers to the other question provide helpful information for this question also, this question specifically asks about footnotes, a topic that the other question and its answers do not explicitly address. I therefore propose not to close this question, as it is not a duplicate.
    – user57423
    yesterday






  • 1




    The main question is why do you need a swearword in a foreign language at all? The snippet could be reworded as: "You are going to be dead, <i>pig</i>" she said, hissing through the syllables of the most vulgar word that her mother-tongue had assigned to sows since the dawn of time.
    – NofP
    yesterday














  • 5




    Possible duplicate of What's the best way to show a foreign language in a manuscript?
    – Lauren Ipsum
    yesterday






  • 3




    You could have one character remark “You are the only person I know who swears in Sanskrit.”
    – Rasdashan
    yesterday






  • 5




    Obligatory xkcd.
    – chrylis
    yesterday






  • 2




    @LaurenIpsum While the answers to the other question provide helpful information for this question also, this question specifically asks about footnotes, a topic that the other question and its answers do not explicitly address. I therefore propose not to close this question, as it is not a duplicate.
    – user57423
    yesterday






  • 1




    The main question is why do you need a swearword in a foreign language at all? The snippet could be reworded as: "You are going to be dead, <i>pig</i>" she said, hissing through the syllables of the most vulgar word that her mother-tongue had assigned to sows since the dawn of time.
    – NofP
    yesterday








5




5




Possible duplicate of What's the best way to show a foreign language in a manuscript?
– Lauren Ipsum
yesterday




Possible duplicate of What's the best way to show a foreign language in a manuscript?
– Lauren Ipsum
yesterday




3




3




You could have one character remark “You are the only person I know who swears in Sanskrit.”
– Rasdashan
yesterday




You could have one character remark “You are the only person I know who swears in Sanskrit.”
– Rasdashan
yesterday




5




5




Obligatory xkcd.
– chrylis
yesterday




Obligatory xkcd.
– chrylis
yesterday




2




2




@LaurenIpsum While the answers to the other question provide helpful information for this question also, this question specifically asks about footnotes, a topic that the other question and its answers do not explicitly address. I therefore propose not to close this question, as it is not a duplicate.
– user57423
yesterday




@LaurenIpsum While the answers to the other question provide helpful information for this question also, this question specifically asks about footnotes, a topic that the other question and its answers do not explicitly address. I therefore propose not to close this question, as it is not a duplicate.
– user57423
yesterday




1




1




The main question is why do you need a swearword in a foreign language at all? The snippet could be reworded as: "You are going to be dead, <i>pig</i>" she said, hissing through the syllables of the most vulgar word that her mother-tongue had assigned to sows since the dawn of time.
– NofP
yesterday




The main question is why do you need a swearword in a foreign language at all? The snippet could be reworded as: "You are going to be dead, <i>pig</i>" she said, hissing through the syllables of the most vulgar word that her mother-tongue had assigned to sows since the dawn of time.
– NofP
yesterday










7 Answers
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18














When in doubt, do what the masters did.



Some examples:




Raoden breathed a sigh of relief. "Whoever you are, I'm glad to see you. I was beginning to think everyone in here was either dying or insane."

"We can't be dying," the an responded with a snort. "We're already dead. Kolo?"

"Kolo." The foreign word was vaguely familiar, as was the man's strong accent.

(Brandon Sanderson, Elantris, chapter 1)




No footnotes, no inline translation. The fantasy-language word is understood from context.




'O Fair Folk! This is good fortune beyond my hope,' saod Pippin. Sam was speechless. 'I thank you indeed, Gildor Inglorion,' said Frodo bowing. 'Elen síla lúmenn' omentielvo, a star shines on the hour of our meeting,' he added in the high-elven speech.

(J.R.R. Tolkien, The Lord of the Rings, book 1, chapter 3 - Three is Company)




The translation is provided by the narrator, without breaking the flow of the narration.




When he saw Strider, he dismounted and ran to meet him calling out: Ai na vedui Dúnadan! Mae govannen! His speech and clear ringing voice left no doubt in their hearts: the rider was of the Elven-folk.

(ibid, chapter 12 - Flight to the Ford)




No translation, readers can only guess at the meaning, beyond the general "hello".



Those examples have a commonality: none use footnotes. Why? @Amadeus is exactly right on this - because a footnote takes the reader out of the flow, it breaks the immersion in the story. It makes the reader stop, and go look at something else. It's an interrupt in the thought process. A stumble in his journey. Footnotes may be used when this is the effect you want to achieve. For example, Sir Terry Pratchett made use of footnotes for comedic effect.



What then instead of footnotes? Which example fits best what situation?



If the general meaning of the foreign word(s) can be understood from context, translating is redundant. There is therefore no need for translation in the Brandon Sanderson example. The example you provide is similar - the fact that 'sahu' is a curse can be inferred from context. The specific meaning thus becomes unnecessary.



If the general meaning cannot be inferred from context, does the POV character understand the meaning? If he doesn't, we probably shouldn't either. If he does, and if the story has something to gain from the translation, the first Tolkien example shows how a translation can be added without breaking the flow of the narration. In the second example, we do not understand the phrase, but nor do we need to. It's a conversation we're not meant to intrude on, only see that it is happening. (Also, it contains a spoiler.)






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    12














    Footnotes are sometimes a good solution and sometimes a bad one; it depends greatly on the tone you want to set. In fact, I'd say the question you want to answer is why your characters should speak another language at all. (The solution with italics would be very confusing—I don't think I've ever seen it done.)



    Footnotes will be a momentary distraction to the reader, but will let you specify the word exactly. Terry Pratchett used them extensively, and you can tell he would sometimes make up a word just for the sake of having a footnote that explained it. Guards! Guards! has quite a few examples of this. However, when he uses considerably more made-up words in The Fifth Elephant, he instead uses them with no explanation, or with minor explanation from other characters in the text. They're used there to emphasise that there is a language barrier, and translating everything for the reader would not help with that.



    Looking more broadly, in my experience fantasy authors will typically leave the meaning of the terms up to context, or explain them in the narration. If you'd like to see some examples, Brandon Sanderson and Patrick Rothfuss both invent quite a few words. J.R.R. Tolkien is another prominent example, although he does not use them in dialogue all that much and mostly sticks to a fairly small set that are used frequently (despite having considerably more available to him).



    Something to keep in mind is that your situation is very different than when people insert terms from some existing language into their book, as Russian authors in the 19th century tended to do with French. These will often be translated in footnotes these days, but it was assumed the reader would know what they are when the books were written. As such, I would be careful of looking at these examples.



    EDIT: Oops, I hadn't realised you used a real language—though I wouldn't expect your readers to know Sanskrit, so the situation is pretty much the same. In this case, it sounds like you want your character to appear strange, even by the standards of that world. Adding footnotes to explain things wouldn't improve that effect, so there's no need to. If anything the character says has to be understood (important directions, etc.), you can have a character translate it—after all, supposedly there's someone else who also cares about what it means.






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    • 3




      Interestingly, while the Russians assumed that everyone who could read, spoke French (most French-heavy example being War and Piece), French authors of the same time period translated (within the narration) the simplest English phrases, up to 'yes' and 'no'.
      – Galastel
      yesterday








    • 1




      @Anton Golov, To answer your question, "I'd say the question you want to answer is why your characters should speak another language at all." Because the character is an ancient creature and Sanskrit used to be his language. He wakes up after a very long time and speaks in English but doesn't master the language very well, so he sometimes utters single words in Sanskrit.
      – vanity
      yesterday








    • 1




      @vanity: Thanks, I've expanded on that case.
      – Anton Golov
      yesterday










    • @Anton Golov, very helpful thanks.
      – vanity
      yesterday



















    8














    It All Depends on the POV.



    I would use ZERO footnotes in a fictional novel. I think it may have been done, but I think it breaks the reader's reverie and immersion in the story. It is bad form. The same goes for translating in italics, it isn't clear that is a translation, especially if it doesn't happen often.



    It all depends on the POV.



    If this is the MC and we are privileged to his thoughts, then his thoughts can do the translate for us. But if we (readers) are following somebody else, we should not be privileged to any more information than that POV; and if she doesn't understand "sahu" or that she's been called a pig, then too bad for the reader, they don't get to either. She would understand she's been threatened and likely insulted, and that's enough.



    If you are writing in omniscient mode, then the narrator knows what sahu means, and can mention it in prose. I think the literalness of an insult is not important to the reader's comprehension here, almost anything could be substituted for "pig," like "cockroach", "dumbass", etc, without changing the emotional impact at all.



    For what it's worth, I also would not put it in all caps; See Manuscript Format for Novel Submission. Publisher's expect emphasis or stress in italics, and specifically do not like ALL CAPS.






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    • 3




      It is neither bad form nor does it "break the reverie and immersion", if, for example, using footnotes is part of the narrator's character. See the examples in my answer.
      – user57423
      yesterday












    • @user57423 Are you trying to tell me what I think? I specifically said I think. Or are you trying to tell me you have incontrovertible proof that I am wrong? I doubt you can provide it. Express your opinion as an opinion, not a fact, and feel free to do it in your own answer. I also disagree that "using footnotes is part of the narrator's character" is an excuse, I do not think that is good writing and I would not recommend it to any aspiring author.
      – Amadeus
      yesterday






    • 1




      Incontrovertible proof? When some of the most respected as well as some of the best selling authors use footnotes, that seems like incontrovertible proof to me. And when a novel pretends to be a text written by a narrator (e.g. letters or a diary) who uses footnotes, then footnotes are a necessity. In The Curious Incident of the Dog in the Night-Time, Mark Haddon uses footnotes to provide the reader with a reading experience as fractured as the narrator's own mind, who suffers from Autism. Again, that book has won multiple awards. That's incontrovertible proof that you are wrong.
      – user57423
      yesterday










    • @user57423 Great, then my advice is, if you are amongst the most respected and best selling authors, feel free to use footnotes. I don't, I consider them bad form, just like I consider a heavy reliance on '-ly' adverbs as bad form. But Rowling is the best selling author of all time and uses them liberally. Guess what? Agents and publishers still don't like them, go figure. Famous authors have strengths that outweigh their weaknesses, what King or Brown or Rowling do is not sacred and not automatically good. You considering that "incontrovertible proof" is a logic error on your part.
      – Amadeus
      yesterday










    • @Amadeus, a very helpful link, thanks
      – vanity
      yesterday



















    6














    I would recommend just leaving it completely untranslated and let the reader pick up the basic meaning from context. In this case, we only really need to know SAHU is an insult and the direct translation is unimportant.



    If it is important for the reader to know what a single specific word means, just have another character ask, what you mean by SAHU? Or have the character to say the foreign word and then search for an English equivalent. Those should be used very sparingly though as it would quickly get tiring.






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      3














      I took riding lessons from a Polish gentleman - former lieutenant in the Polish Cavalry, spent time as a Vaccaro so his credentials were impeccable.



      Occasionally, when we were not picking up what he was putting down, he would start to speak Polish. It was our assumption that he was swearing or at the very least, extremely frustrated with us. We would try that much harder to please him. He was an excellent instructor.



      Have your character swear in whatever language you choose. The sudden insertion of a word the reader does not know but clearly is of another language - real or imagined - comes across as an insult or swearing.






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        3














        Footnotes in fiction



        Many contemporary works of fiction use footnotes. Here are a few:




        • Nicholson Baker, The Mezzanine

        • Mark Haddon, The Curious Incident of the Dog in the Night-Time

        • Susanna Clarke, Jonathan Strange & Mr Norrell

        • Vladimir Nabokov, Pale Fire

        • Junot Diaz, The Brief Wondrous life of Oscar Wao

        • David Foster Wallace, Infinite Jest

        • Mark Z. Danielewski, House of Leaves

        • David Mitchell, Cloud Atlas


        Look at the books to see how footnotes are employed and to what effect. Here is a long list of fiction that uses footnotes or endnotes. Some of the most famous authors use footnotes and you can find footnotes in some New York Times best selling fiction, so claiming that footnotes must not be used in fiction is both ignorant and foolish. There is even a TVTropes page about footnotes in fiction.



        Translations in footnotes



        Terry Pratchett often uses footnotes to translate fictional terms. Kate Horsley uses footnotes to translate Latin and Gaelic passages in Confessions of a Pagan Nun. John Green also provides translations in the footnotes in An Abundance of Katherines. The footnotes in The Athenian Murders by Jose Carlos Somoza offer translations and comments by the fictional translator.



        Your examples



        I agree with the other answers that translations are unnecessary in your case.






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        • 4




          Do any of them use footnotes specifically to translate foreign words?
          – F1Krazy
          yesterday






        • 1




          @F1Krazy I knew you would ask. See my edit.
          – user57423
          yesterday






        • 1




          Not a single one of the numerous footnotes in Jonathan Strange & Mr. Norrell is used to translate foreign words. Not familiar with the other examples, so can't comment on them.
          – Galastel
          yesterday






        • 1




          @Galastel I didn't claim there were.
          – user57423
          yesterday










        • @user57423, very helpful links, thanks
          – vanity
          yesterday



















        2














        While footnotes are unusual in fiction literature, there are a few examples. The one that uses them for translation that I know is Liu Cixin's "Three Body Problem" trilogy as well as his short stories. They are originally written in chinese. In the english translation, the translator has inserted footnotes whenever a phrase or term or especially name could not be cleanly translated without losing, for example, a double meaning. They are also used to provide context for all of these things.



        The thing I noticed is that the footnote is never just a translation. It always is at least a full sentence that gives some context.



        Taking from that example, I would suggest the use of footnotes if you need to add details that would break the flow, and are important enough to include, but the reader can without harm decide to jump to the footnote right now, or at the end of the sentence, paragraph or chapter.






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        • Of course the translator is constrained by the author's words, he can't insert information in any other way than footnotes. Whereas an author has other tools in their arsenal.
          – Galastel
          8 hours ago






        • 1




          That is certainly a reason. But the way it was done makes it actually enjoyable to have these footnotes. They add value.
          – Tom
          7 hours ago










        • @Tom very helpful notes, thanks.
          – vanity
          2 hours ago










        • @Galastel very helpful notes, thanks.
          – vanity
          2 hours ago











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        7 Answers
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        7 Answers
        7






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        18














        When in doubt, do what the masters did.



        Some examples:




        Raoden breathed a sigh of relief. "Whoever you are, I'm glad to see you. I was beginning to think everyone in here was either dying or insane."

        "We can't be dying," the an responded with a snort. "We're already dead. Kolo?"

        "Kolo." The foreign word was vaguely familiar, as was the man's strong accent.

        (Brandon Sanderson, Elantris, chapter 1)




        No footnotes, no inline translation. The fantasy-language word is understood from context.




        'O Fair Folk! This is good fortune beyond my hope,' saod Pippin. Sam was speechless. 'I thank you indeed, Gildor Inglorion,' said Frodo bowing. 'Elen síla lúmenn' omentielvo, a star shines on the hour of our meeting,' he added in the high-elven speech.

        (J.R.R. Tolkien, The Lord of the Rings, book 1, chapter 3 - Three is Company)




        The translation is provided by the narrator, without breaking the flow of the narration.




        When he saw Strider, he dismounted and ran to meet him calling out: Ai na vedui Dúnadan! Mae govannen! His speech and clear ringing voice left no doubt in their hearts: the rider was of the Elven-folk.

        (ibid, chapter 12 - Flight to the Ford)




        No translation, readers can only guess at the meaning, beyond the general "hello".



        Those examples have a commonality: none use footnotes. Why? @Amadeus is exactly right on this - because a footnote takes the reader out of the flow, it breaks the immersion in the story. It makes the reader stop, and go look at something else. It's an interrupt in the thought process. A stumble in his journey. Footnotes may be used when this is the effect you want to achieve. For example, Sir Terry Pratchett made use of footnotes for comedic effect.



        What then instead of footnotes? Which example fits best what situation?



        If the general meaning of the foreign word(s) can be understood from context, translating is redundant. There is therefore no need for translation in the Brandon Sanderson example. The example you provide is similar - the fact that 'sahu' is a curse can be inferred from context. The specific meaning thus becomes unnecessary.



        If the general meaning cannot be inferred from context, does the POV character understand the meaning? If he doesn't, we probably shouldn't either. If he does, and if the story has something to gain from the translation, the first Tolkien example shows how a translation can be added without breaking the flow of the narration. In the second example, we do not understand the phrase, but nor do we need to. It's a conversation we're not meant to intrude on, only see that it is happening. (Also, it contains a spoiler.)






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          18














          When in doubt, do what the masters did.



          Some examples:




          Raoden breathed a sigh of relief. "Whoever you are, I'm glad to see you. I was beginning to think everyone in here was either dying or insane."

          "We can't be dying," the an responded with a snort. "We're already dead. Kolo?"

          "Kolo." The foreign word was vaguely familiar, as was the man's strong accent.

          (Brandon Sanderson, Elantris, chapter 1)




          No footnotes, no inline translation. The fantasy-language word is understood from context.




          'O Fair Folk! This is good fortune beyond my hope,' saod Pippin. Sam was speechless. 'I thank you indeed, Gildor Inglorion,' said Frodo bowing. 'Elen síla lúmenn' omentielvo, a star shines on the hour of our meeting,' he added in the high-elven speech.

          (J.R.R. Tolkien, The Lord of the Rings, book 1, chapter 3 - Three is Company)




          The translation is provided by the narrator, without breaking the flow of the narration.




          When he saw Strider, he dismounted and ran to meet him calling out: Ai na vedui Dúnadan! Mae govannen! His speech and clear ringing voice left no doubt in their hearts: the rider was of the Elven-folk.

          (ibid, chapter 12 - Flight to the Ford)




          No translation, readers can only guess at the meaning, beyond the general "hello".



          Those examples have a commonality: none use footnotes. Why? @Amadeus is exactly right on this - because a footnote takes the reader out of the flow, it breaks the immersion in the story. It makes the reader stop, and go look at something else. It's an interrupt in the thought process. A stumble in his journey. Footnotes may be used when this is the effect you want to achieve. For example, Sir Terry Pratchett made use of footnotes for comedic effect.



          What then instead of footnotes? Which example fits best what situation?



          If the general meaning of the foreign word(s) can be understood from context, translating is redundant. There is therefore no need for translation in the Brandon Sanderson example. The example you provide is similar - the fact that 'sahu' is a curse can be inferred from context. The specific meaning thus becomes unnecessary.



          If the general meaning cannot be inferred from context, does the POV character understand the meaning? If he doesn't, we probably shouldn't either. If he does, and if the story has something to gain from the translation, the first Tolkien example shows how a translation can be added without breaking the flow of the narration. In the second example, we do not understand the phrase, but nor do we need to. It's a conversation we're not meant to intrude on, only see that it is happening. (Also, it contains a spoiler.)






          share|improve this answer
























            18












            18








            18






            When in doubt, do what the masters did.



            Some examples:




            Raoden breathed a sigh of relief. "Whoever you are, I'm glad to see you. I was beginning to think everyone in here was either dying or insane."

            "We can't be dying," the an responded with a snort. "We're already dead. Kolo?"

            "Kolo." The foreign word was vaguely familiar, as was the man's strong accent.

            (Brandon Sanderson, Elantris, chapter 1)




            No footnotes, no inline translation. The fantasy-language word is understood from context.




            'O Fair Folk! This is good fortune beyond my hope,' saod Pippin. Sam was speechless. 'I thank you indeed, Gildor Inglorion,' said Frodo bowing. 'Elen síla lúmenn' omentielvo, a star shines on the hour of our meeting,' he added in the high-elven speech.

            (J.R.R. Tolkien, The Lord of the Rings, book 1, chapter 3 - Three is Company)




            The translation is provided by the narrator, without breaking the flow of the narration.




            When he saw Strider, he dismounted and ran to meet him calling out: Ai na vedui Dúnadan! Mae govannen! His speech and clear ringing voice left no doubt in their hearts: the rider was of the Elven-folk.

            (ibid, chapter 12 - Flight to the Ford)




            No translation, readers can only guess at the meaning, beyond the general "hello".



            Those examples have a commonality: none use footnotes. Why? @Amadeus is exactly right on this - because a footnote takes the reader out of the flow, it breaks the immersion in the story. It makes the reader stop, and go look at something else. It's an interrupt in the thought process. A stumble in his journey. Footnotes may be used when this is the effect you want to achieve. For example, Sir Terry Pratchett made use of footnotes for comedic effect.



            What then instead of footnotes? Which example fits best what situation?



            If the general meaning of the foreign word(s) can be understood from context, translating is redundant. There is therefore no need for translation in the Brandon Sanderson example. The example you provide is similar - the fact that 'sahu' is a curse can be inferred from context. The specific meaning thus becomes unnecessary.



            If the general meaning cannot be inferred from context, does the POV character understand the meaning? If he doesn't, we probably shouldn't either. If he does, and if the story has something to gain from the translation, the first Tolkien example shows how a translation can be added without breaking the flow of the narration. In the second example, we do not understand the phrase, but nor do we need to. It's a conversation we're not meant to intrude on, only see that it is happening. (Also, it contains a spoiler.)






            share|improve this answer












            When in doubt, do what the masters did.



            Some examples:




            Raoden breathed a sigh of relief. "Whoever you are, I'm glad to see you. I was beginning to think everyone in here was either dying or insane."

            "We can't be dying," the an responded with a snort. "We're already dead. Kolo?"

            "Kolo." The foreign word was vaguely familiar, as was the man's strong accent.

            (Brandon Sanderson, Elantris, chapter 1)




            No footnotes, no inline translation. The fantasy-language word is understood from context.




            'O Fair Folk! This is good fortune beyond my hope,' saod Pippin. Sam was speechless. 'I thank you indeed, Gildor Inglorion,' said Frodo bowing. 'Elen síla lúmenn' omentielvo, a star shines on the hour of our meeting,' he added in the high-elven speech.

            (J.R.R. Tolkien, The Lord of the Rings, book 1, chapter 3 - Three is Company)




            The translation is provided by the narrator, without breaking the flow of the narration.




            When he saw Strider, he dismounted and ran to meet him calling out: Ai na vedui Dúnadan! Mae govannen! His speech and clear ringing voice left no doubt in their hearts: the rider was of the Elven-folk.

            (ibid, chapter 12 - Flight to the Ford)




            No translation, readers can only guess at the meaning, beyond the general "hello".



            Those examples have a commonality: none use footnotes. Why? @Amadeus is exactly right on this - because a footnote takes the reader out of the flow, it breaks the immersion in the story. It makes the reader stop, and go look at something else. It's an interrupt in the thought process. A stumble in his journey. Footnotes may be used when this is the effect you want to achieve. For example, Sir Terry Pratchett made use of footnotes for comedic effect.



            What then instead of footnotes? Which example fits best what situation?



            If the general meaning of the foreign word(s) can be understood from context, translating is redundant. There is therefore no need for translation in the Brandon Sanderson example. The example you provide is similar - the fact that 'sahu' is a curse can be inferred from context. The specific meaning thus becomes unnecessary.



            If the general meaning cannot be inferred from context, does the POV character understand the meaning? If he doesn't, we probably shouldn't either. If he does, and if the story has something to gain from the translation, the first Tolkien example shows how a translation can be added without breaking the flow of the narration. In the second example, we do not understand the phrase, but nor do we need to. It's a conversation we're not meant to intrude on, only see that it is happening. (Also, it contains a spoiler.)







            share|improve this answer












            share|improve this answer



            share|improve this answer










            answered yesterday









            GalastelGalastel

            26.1k472142




            26.1k472142























                12














                Footnotes are sometimes a good solution and sometimes a bad one; it depends greatly on the tone you want to set. In fact, I'd say the question you want to answer is why your characters should speak another language at all. (The solution with italics would be very confusing—I don't think I've ever seen it done.)



                Footnotes will be a momentary distraction to the reader, but will let you specify the word exactly. Terry Pratchett used them extensively, and you can tell he would sometimes make up a word just for the sake of having a footnote that explained it. Guards! Guards! has quite a few examples of this. However, when he uses considerably more made-up words in The Fifth Elephant, he instead uses them with no explanation, or with minor explanation from other characters in the text. They're used there to emphasise that there is a language barrier, and translating everything for the reader would not help with that.



                Looking more broadly, in my experience fantasy authors will typically leave the meaning of the terms up to context, or explain them in the narration. If you'd like to see some examples, Brandon Sanderson and Patrick Rothfuss both invent quite a few words. J.R.R. Tolkien is another prominent example, although he does not use them in dialogue all that much and mostly sticks to a fairly small set that are used frequently (despite having considerably more available to him).



                Something to keep in mind is that your situation is very different than when people insert terms from some existing language into their book, as Russian authors in the 19th century tended to do with French. These will often be translated in footnotes these days, but it was assumed the reader would know what they are when the books were written. As such, I would be careful of looking at these examples.



                EDIT: Oops, I hadn't realised you used a real language—though I wouldn't expect your readers to know Sanskrit, so the situation is pretty much the same. In this case, it sounds like you want your character to appear strange, even by the standards of that world. Adding footnotes to explain things wouldn't improve that effect, so there's no need to. If anything the character says has to be understood (important directions, etc.), you can have a character translate it—after all, supposedly there's someone else who also cares about what it means.






                share|improve this answer










                New contributor




                Anton Golov is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                Check out our Code of Conduct.














                • 3




                  Interestingly, while the Russians assumed that everyone who could read, spoke French (most French-heavy example being War and Piece), French authors of the same time period translated (within the narration) the simplest English phrases, up to 'yes' and 'no'.
                  – Galastel
                  yesterday








                • 1




                  @Anton Golov, To answer your question, "I'd say the question you want to answer is why your characters should speak another language at all." Because the character is an ancient creature and Sanskrit used to be his language. He wakes up after a very long time and speaks in English but doesn't master the language very well, so he sometimes utters single words in Sanskrit.
                  – vanity
                  yesterday








                • 1




                  @vanity: Thanks, I've expanded on that case.
                  – Anton Golov
                  yesterday










                • @Anton Golov, very helpful thanks.
                  – vanity
                  yesterday
















                12














                Footnotes are sometimes a good solution and sometimes a bad one; it depends greatly on the tone you want to set. In fact, I'd say the question you want to answer is why your characters should speak another language at all. (The solution with italics would be very confusing—I don't think I've ever seen it done.)



                Footnotes will be a momentary distraction to the reader, but will let you specify the word exactly. Terry Pratchett used them extensively, and you can tell he would sometimes make up a word just for the sake of having a footnote that explained it. Guards! Guards! has quite a few examples of this. However, when he uses considerably more made-up words in The Fifth Elephant, he instead uses them with no explanation, or with minor explanation from other characters in the text. They're used there to emphasise that there is a language barrier, and translating everything for the reader would not help with that.



                Looking more broadly, in my experience fantasy authors will typically leave the meaning of the terms up to context, or explain them in the narration. If you'd like to see some examples, Brandon Sanderson and Patrick Rothfuss both invent quite a few words. J.R.R. Tolkien is another prominent example, although he does not use them in dialogue all that much and mostly sticks to a fairly small set that are used frequently (despite having considerably more available to him).



                Something to keep in mind is that your situation is very different than when people insert terms from some existing language into their book, as Russian authors in the 19th century tended to do with French. These will often be translated in footnotes these days, but it was assumed the reader would know what they are when the books were written. As such, I would be careful of looking at these examples.



                EDIT: Oops, I hadn't realised you used a real language—though I wouldn't expect your readers to know Sanskrit, so the situation is pretty much the same. In this case, it sounds like you want your character to appear strange, even by the standards of that world. Adding footnotes to explain things wouldn't improve that effect, so there's no need to. If anything the character says has to be understood (important directions, etc.), you can have a character translate it—after all, supposedly there's someone else who also cares about what it means.






                share|improve this answer










                New contributor




                Anton Golov is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                Check out our Code of Conduct.














                • 3




                  Interestingly, while the Russians assumed that everyone who could read, spoke French (most French-heavy example being War and Piece), French authors of the same time period translated (within the narration) the simplest English phrases, up to 'yes' and 'no'.
                  – Galastel
                  yesterday








                • 1




                  @Anton Golov, To answer your question, "I'd say the question you want to answer is why your characters should speak another language at all." Because the character is an ancient creature and Sanskrit used to be his language. He wakes up after a very long time and speaks in English but doesn't master the language very well, so he sometimes utters single words in Sanskrit.
                  – vanity
                  yesterday








                • 1




                  @vanity: Thanks, I've expanded on that case.
                  – Anton Golov
                  yesterday










                • @Anton Golov, very helpful thanks.
                  – vanity
                  yesterday














                12












                12








                12






                Footnotes are sometimes a good solution and sometimes a bad one; it depends greatly on the tone you want to set. In fact, I'd say the question you want to answer is why your characters should speak another language at all. (The solution with italics would be very confusing—I don't think I've ever seen it done.)



                Footnotes will be a momentary distraction to the reader, but will let you specify the word exactly. Terry Pratchett used them extensively, and you can tell he would sometimes make up a word just for the sake of having a footnote that explained it. Guards! Guards! has quite a few examples of this. However, when he uses considerably more made-up words in The Fifth Elephant, he instead uses them with no explanation, or with minor explanation from other characters in the text. They're used there to emphasise that there is a language barrier, and translating everything for the reader would not help with that.



                Looking more broadly, in my experience fantasy authors will typically leave the meaning of the terms up to context, or explain them in the narration. If you'd like to see some examples, Brandon Sanderson and Patrick Rothfuss both invent quite a few words. J.R.R. Tolkien is another prominent example, although he does not use them in dialogue all that much and mostly sticks to a fairly small set that are used frequently (despite having considerably more available to him).



                Something to keep in mind is that your situation is very different than when people insert terms from some existing language into their book, as Russian authors in the 19th century tended to do with French. These will often be translated in footnotes these days, but it was assumed the reader would know what they are when the books were written. As such, I would be careful of looking at these examples.



                EDIT: Oops, I hadn't realised you used a real language—though I wouldn't expect your readers to know Sanskrit, so the situation is pretty much the same. In this case, it sounds like you want your character to appear strange, even by the standards of that world. Adding footnotes to explain things wouldn't improve that effect, so there's no need to. If anything the character says has to be understood (important directions, etc.), you can have a character translate it—after all, supposedly there's someone else who also cares about what it means.






                share|improve this answer










                New contributor




                Anton Golov is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                Check out our Code of Conduct.









                Footnotes are sometimes a good solution and sometimes a bad one; it depends greatly on the tone you want to set. In fact, I'd say the question you want to answer is why your characters should speak another language at all. (The solution with italics would be very confusing—I don't think I've ever seen it done.)



                Footnotes will be a momentary distraction to the reader, but will let you specify the word exactly. Terry Pratchett used them extensively, and you can tell he would sometimes make up a word just for the sake of having a footnote that explained it. Guards! Guards! has quite a few examples of this. However, when he uses considerably more made-up words in The Fifth Elephant, he instead uses them with no explanation, or with minor explanation from other characters in the text. They're used there to emphasise that there is a language barrier, and translating everything for the reader would not help with that.



                Looking more broadly, in my experience fantasy authors will typically leave the meaning of the terms up to context, or explain them in the narration. If you'd like to see some examples, Brandon Sanderson and Patrick Rothfuss both invent quite a few words. J.R.R. Tolkien is another prominent example, although he does not use them in dialogue all that much and mostly sticks to a fairly small set that are used frequently (despite having considerably more available to him).



                Something to keep in mind is that your situation is very different than when people insert terms from some existing language into their book, as Russian authors in the 19th century tended to do with French. These will often be translated in footnotes these days, but it was assumed the reader would know what they are when the books were written. As such, I would be careful of looking at these examples.



                EDIT: Oops, I hadn't realised you used a real language—though I wouldn't expect your readers to know Sanskrit, so the situation is pretty much the same. In this case, it sounds like you want your character to appear strange, even by the standards of that world. Adding footnotes to explain things wouldn't improve that effect, so there's no need to. If anything the character says has to be understood (important directions, etc.), you can have a character translate it—after all, supposedly there's someone else who also cares about what it means.







                share|improve this answer










                New contributor




                Anton Golov is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                Check out our Code of Conduct.









                share|improve this answer



                share|improve this answer








                edited yesterday





















                New contributor




                Anton Golov is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                Check out our Code of Conduct.









                answered yesterday









                Anton GolovAnton Golov

                2215




                2215




                New contributor




                Anton Golov is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                Check out our Code of Conduct.





                New contributor





                Anton Golov is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                Check out our Code of Conduct.






                Anton Golov is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                Check out our Code of Conduct.








                • 3




                  Interestingly, while the Russians assumed that everyone who could read, spoke French (most French-heavy example being War and Piece), French authors of the same time period translated (within the narration) the simplest English phrases, up to 'yes' and 'no'.
                  – Galastel
                  yesterday








                • 1




                  @Anton Golov, To answer your question, "I'd say the question you want to answer is why your characters should speak another language at all." Because the character is an ancient creature and Sanskrit used to be his language. He wakes up after a very long time and speaks in English but doesn't master the language very well, so he sometimes utters single words in Sanskrit.
                  – vanity
                  yesterday








                • 1




                  @vanity: Thanks, I've expanded on that case.
                  – Anton Golov
                  yesterday










                • @Anton Golov, very helpful thanks.
                  – vanity
                  yesterday














                • 3




                  Interestingly, while the Russians assumed that everyone who could read, spoke French (most French-heavy example being War and Piece), French authors of the same time period translated (within the narration) the simplest English phrases, up to 'yes' and 'no'.
                  – Galastel
                  yesterday








                • 1




                  @Anton Golov, To answer your question, "I'd say the question you want to answer is why your characters should speak another language at all." Because the character is an ancient creature and Sanskrit used to be his language. He wakes up after a very long time and speaks in English but doesn't master the language very well, so he sometimes utters single words in Sanskrit.
                  – vanity
                  yesterday








                • 1




                  @vanity: Thanks, I've expanded on that case.
                  – Anton Golov
                  yesterday










                • @Anton Golov, very helpful thanks.
                  – vanity
                  yesterday








                3




                3




                Interestingly, while the Russians assumed that everyone who could read, spoke French (most French-heavy example being War and Piece), French authors of the same time period translated (within the narration) the simplest English phrases, up to 'yes' and 'no'.
                – Galastel
                yesterday






                Interestingly, while the Russians assumed that everyone who could read, spoke French (most French-heavy example being War and Piece), French authors of the same time period translated (within the narration) the simplest English phrases, up to 'yes' and 'no'.
                – Galastel
                yesterday






                1




                1




                @Anton Golov, To answer your question, "I'd say the question you want to answer is why your characters should speak another language at all." Because the character is an ancient creature and Sanskrit used to be his language. He wakes up after a very long time and speaks in English but doesn't master the language very well, so he sometimes utters single words in Sanskrit.
                – vanity
                yesterday






                @Anton Golov, To answer your question, "I'd say the question you want to answer is why your characters should speak another language at all." Because the character is an ancient creature and Sanskrit used to be his language. He wakes up after a very long time and speaks in English but doesn't master the language very well, so he sometimes utters single words in Sanskrit.
                – vanity
                yesterday






                1




                1




                @vanity: Thanks, I've expanded on that case.
                – Anton Golov
                yesterday




                @vanity: Thanks, I've expanded on that case.
                – Anton Golov
                yesterday












                @Anton Golov, very helpful thanks.
                – vanity
                yesterday




                @Anton Golov, very helpful thanks.
                – vanity
                yesterday











                8














                It All Depends on the POV.



                I would use ZERO footnotes in a fictional novel. I think it may have been done, but I think it breaks the reader's reverie and immersion in the story. It is bad form. The same goes for translating in italics, it isn't clear that is a translation, especially if it doesn't happen often.



                It all depends on the POV.



                If this is the MC and we are privileged to his thoughts, then his thoughts can do the translate for us. But if we (readers) are following somebody else, we should not be privileged to any more information than that POV; and if she doesn't understand "sahu" or that she's been called a pig, then too bad for the reader, they don't get to either. She would understand she's been threatened and likely insulted, and that's enough.



                If you are writing in omniscient mode, then the narrator knows what sahu means, and can mention it in prose. I think the literalness of an insult is not important to the reader's comprehension here, almost anything could be substituted for "pig," like "cockroach", "dumbass", etc, without changing the emotional impact at all.



                For what it's worth, I also would not put it in all caps; See Manuscript Format for Novel Submission. Publisher's expect emphasis or stress in italics, and specifically do not like ALL CAPS.






                share|improve this answer

















                • 3




                  It is neither bad form nor does it "break the reverie and immersion", if, for example, using footnotes is part of the narrator's character. See the examples in my answer.
                  – user57423
                  yesterday












                • @user57423 Are you trying to tell me what I think? I specifically said I think. Or are you trying to tell me you have incontrovertible proof that I am wrong? I doubt you can provide it. Express your opinion as an opinion, not a fact, and feel free to do it in your own answer. I also disagree that "using footnotes is part of the narrator's character" is an excuse, I do not think that is good writing and I would not recommend it to any aspiring author.
                  – Amadeus
                  yesterday






                • 1




                  Incontrovertible proof? When some of the most respected as well as some of the best selling authors use footnotes, that seems like incontrovertible proof to me. And when a novel pretends to be a text written by a narrator (e.g. letters or a diary) who uses footnotes, then footnotes are a necessity. In The Curious Incident of the Dog in the Night-Time, Mark Haddon uses footnotes to provide the reader with a reading experience as fractured as the narrator's own mind, who suffers from Autism. Again, that book has won multiple awards. That's incontrovertible proof that you are wrong.
                  – user57423
                  yesterday










                • @user57423 Great, then my advice is, if you are amongst the most respected and best selling authors, feel free to use footnotes. I don't, I consider them bad form, just like I consider a heavy reliance on '-ly' adverbs as bad form. But Rowling is the best selling author of all time and uses them liberally. Guess what? Agents and publishers still don't like them, go figure. Famous authors have strengths that outweigh their weaknesses, what King or Brown or Rowling do is not sacred and not automatically good. You considering that "incontrovertible proof" is a logic error on your part.
                  – Amadeus
                  yesterday










                • @Amadeus, a very helpful link, thanks
                  – vanity
                  yesterday
















                8














                It All Depends on the POV.



                I would use ZERO footnotes in a fictional novel. I think it may have been done, but I think it breaks the reader's reverie and immersion in the story. It is bad form. The same goes for translating in italics, it isn't clear that is a translation, especially if it doesn't happen often.



                It all depends on the POV.



                If this is the MC and we are privileged to his thoughts, then his thoughts can do the translate for us. But if we (readers) are following somebody else, we should not be privileged to any more information than that POV; and if she doesn't understand "sahu" or that she's been called a pig, then too bad for the reader, they don't get to either. She would understand she's been threatened and likely insulted, and that's enough.



                If you are writing in omniscient mode, then the narrator knows what sahu means, and can mention it in prose. I think the literalness of an insult is not important to the reader's comprehension here, almost anything could be substituted for "pig," like "cockroach", "dumbass", etc, without changing the emotional impact at all.



                For what it's worth, I also would not put it in all caps; See Manuscript Format for Novel Submission. Publisher's expect emphasis or stress in italics, and specifically do not like ALL CAPS.






                share|improve this answer

















                • 3




                  It is neither bad form nor does it "break the reverie and immersion", if, for example, using footnotes is part of the narrator's character. See the examples in my answer.
                  – user57423
                  yesterday












                • @user57423 Are you trying to tell me what I think? I specifically said I think. Or are you trying to tell me you have incontrovertible proof that I am wrong? I doubt you can provide it. Express your opinion as an opinion, not a fact, and feel free to do it in your own answer. I also disagree that "using footnotes is part of the narrator's character" is an excuse, I do not think that is good writing and I would not recommend it to any aspiring author.
                  – Amadeus
                  yesterday






                • 1




                  Incontrovertible proof? When some of the most respected as well as some of the best selling authors use footnotes, that seems like incontrovertible proof to me. And when a novel pretends to be a text written by a narrator (e.g. letters or a diary) who uses footnotes, then footnotes are a necessity. In The Curious Incident of the Dog in the Night-Time, Mark Haddon uses footnotes to provide the reader with a reading experience as fractured as the narrator's own mind, who suffers from Autism. Again, that book has won multiple awards. That's incontrovertible proof that you are wrong.
                  – user57423
                  yesterday










                • @user57423 Great, then my advice is, if you are amongst the most respected and best selling authors, feel free to use footnotes. I don't, I consider them bad form, just like I consider a heavy reliance on '-ly' adverbs as bad form. But Rowling is the best selling author of all time and uses them liberally. Guess what? Agents and publishers still don't like them, go figure. Famous authors have strengths that outweigh their weaknesses, what King or Brown or Rowling do is not sacred and not automatically good. You considering that "incontrovertible proof" is a logic error on your part.
                  – Amadeus
                  yesterday










                • @Amadeus, a very helpful link, thanks
                  – vanity
                  yesterday














                8












                8








                8






                It All Depends on the POV.



                I would use ZERO footnotes in a fictional novel. I think it may have been done, but I think it breaks the reader's reverie and immersion in the story. It is bad form. The same goes for translating in italics, it isn't clear that is a translation, especially if it doesn't happen often.



                It all depends on the POV.



                If this is the MC and we are privileged to his thoughts, then his thoughts can do the translate for us. But if we (readers) are following somebody else, we should not be privileged to any more information than that POV; and if she doesn't understand "sahu" or that she's been called a pig, then too bad for the reader, they don't get to either. She would understand she's been threatened and likely insulted, and that's enough.



                If you are writing in omniscient mode, then the narrator knows what sahu means, and can mention it in prose. I think the literalness of an insult is not important to the reader's comprehension here, almost anything could be substituted for "pig," like "cockroach", "dumbass", etc, without changing the emotional impact at all.



                For what it's worth, I also would not put it in all caps; See Manuscript Format for Novel Submission. Publisher's expect emphasis or stress in italics, and specifically do not like ALL CAPS.






                share|improve this answer












                It All Depends on the POV.



                I would use ZERO footnotes in a fictional novel. I think it may have been done, but I think it breaks the reader's reverie and immersion in the story. It is bad form. The same goes for translating in italics, it isn't clear that is a translation, especially if it doesn't happen often.



                It all depends on the POV.



                If this is the MC and we are privileged to his thoughts, then his thoughts can do the translate for us. But if we (readers) are following somebody else, we should not be privileged to any more information than that POV; and if she doesn't understand "sahu" or that she's been called a pig, then too bad for the reader, they don't get to either. She would understand she's been threatened and likely insulted, and that's enough.



                If you are writing in omniscient mode, then the narrator knows what sahu means, and can mention it in prose. I think the literalness of an insult is not important to the reader's comprehension here, almost anything could be substituted for "pig," like "cockroach", "dumbass", etc, without changing the emotional impact at all.



                For what it's worth, I also would not put it in all caps; See Manuscript Format for Novel Submission. Publisher's expect emphasis or stress in italics, and specifically do not like ALL CAPS.







                share|improve this answer












                share|improve this answer



                share|improve this answer










                answered yesterday









                AmadeusAmadeus

                46.8k358148




                46.8k358148








                • 3




                  It is neither bad form nor does it "break the reverie and immersion", if, for example, using footnotes is part of the narrator's character. See the examples in my answer.
                  – user57423
                  yesterday












                • @user57423 Are you trying to tell me what I think? I specifically said I think. Or are you trying to tell me you have incontrovertible proof that I am wrong? I doubt you can provide it. Express your opinion as an opinion, not a fact, and feel free to do it in your own answer. I also disagree that "using footnotes is part of the narrator's character" is an excuse, I do not think that is good writing and I would not recommend it to any aspiring author.
                  – Amadeus
                  yesterday






                • 1




                  Incontrovertible proof? When some of the most respected as well as some of the best selling authors use footnotes, that seems like incontrovertible proof to me. And when a novel pretends to be a text written by a narrator (e.g. letters or a diary) who uses footnotes, then footnotes are a necessity. In The Curious Incident of the Dog in the Night-Time, Mark Haddon uses footnotes to provide the reader with a reading experience as fractured as the narrator's own mind, who suffers from Autism. Again, that book has won multiple awards. That's incontrovertible proof that you are wrong.
                  – user57423
                  yesterday










                • @user57423 Great, then my advice is, if you are amongst the most respected and best selling authors, feel free to use footnotes. I don't, I consider them bad form, just like I consider a heavy reliance on '-ly' adverbs as bad form. But Rowling is the best selling author of all time and uses them liberally. Guess what? Agents and publishers still don't like them, go figure. Famous authors have strengths that outweigh their weaknesses, what King or Brown or Rowling do is not sacred and not automatically good. You considering that "incontrovertible proof" is a logic error on your part.
                  – Amadeus
                  yesterday










                • @Amadeus, a very helpful link, thanks
                  – vanity
                  yesterday














                • 3




                  It is neither bad form nor does it "break the reverie and immersion", if, for example, using footnotes is part of the narrator's character. See the examples in my answer.
                  – user57423
                  yesterday












                • @user57423 Are you trying to tell me what I think? I specifically said I think. Or are you trying to tell me you have incontrovertible proof that I am wrong? I doubt you can provide it. Express your opinion as an opinion, not a fact, and feel free to do it in your own answer. I also disagree that "using footnotes is part of the narrator's character" is an excuse, I do not think that is good writing and I would not recommend it to any aspiring author.
                  – Amadeus
                  yesterday






                • 1




                  Incontrovertible proof? When some of the most respected as well as some of the best selling authors use footnotes, that seems like incontrovertible proof to me. And when a novel pretends to be a text written by a narrator (e.g. letters or a diary) who uses footnotes, then footnotes are a necessity. In The Curious Incident of the Dog in the Night-Time, Mark Haddon uses footnotes to provide the reader with a reading experience as fractured as the narrator's own mind, who suffers from Autism. Again, that book has won multiple awards. That's incontrovertible proof that you are wrong.
                  – user57423
                  yesterday










                • @user57423 Great, then my advice is, if you are amongst the most respected and best selling authors, feel free to use footnotes. I don't, I consider them bad form, just like I consider a heavy reliance on '-ly' adverbs as bad form. But Rowling is the best selling author of all time and uses them liberally. Guess what? Agents and publishers still don't like them, go figure. Famous authors have strengths that outweigh their weaknesses, what King or Brown or Rowling do is not sacred and not automatically good. You considering that "incontrovertible proof" is a logic error on your part.
                  – Amadeus
                  yesterday










                • @Amadeus, a very helpful link, thanks
                  – vanity
                  yesterday








                3




                3




                It is neither bad form nor does it "break the reverie and immersion", if, for example, using footnotes is part of the narrator's character. See the examples in my answer.
                – user57423
                yesterday






                It is neither bad form nor does it "break the reverie and immersion", if, for example, using footnotes is part of the narrator's character. See the examples in my answer.
                – user57423
                yesterday














                @user57423 Are you trying to tell me what I think? I specifically said I think. Or are you trying to tell me you have incontrovertible proof that I am wrong? I doubt you can provide it. Express your opinion as an opinion, not a fact, and feel free to do it in your own answer. I also disagree that "using footnotes is part of the narrator's character" is an excuse, I do not think that is good writing and I would not recommend it to any aspiring author.
                – Amadeus
                yesterday




                @user57423 Are you trying to tell me what I think? I specifically said I think. Or are you trying to tell me you have incontrovertible proof that I am wrong? I doubt you can provide it. Express your opinion as an opinion, not a fact, and feel free to do it in your own answer. I also disagree that "using footnotes is part of the narrator's character" is an excuse, I do not think that is good writing and I would not recommend it to any aspiring author.
                – Amadeus
                yesterday




                1




                1




                Incontrovertible proof? When some of the most respected as well as some of the best selling authors use footnotes, that seems like incontrovertible proof to me. And when a novel pretends to be a text written by a narrator (e.g. letters or a diary) who uses footnotes, then footnotes are a necessity. In The Curious Incident of the Dog in the Night-Time, Mark Haddon uses footnotes to provide the reader with a reading experience as fractured as the narrator's own mind, who suffers from Autism. Again, that book has won multiple awards. That's incontrovertible proof that you are wrong.
                – user57423
                yesterday




                Incontrovertible proof? When some of the most respected as well as some of the best selling authors use footnotes, that seems like incontrovertible proof to me. And when a novel pretends to be a text written by a narrator (e.g. letters or a diary) who uses footnotes, then footnotes are a necessity. In The Curious Incident of the Dog in the Night-Time, Mark Haddon uses footnotes to provide the reader with a reading experience as fractured as the narrator's own mind, who suffers from Autism. Again, that book has won multiple awards. That's incontrovertible proof that you are wrong.
                – user57423
                yesterday












                @user57423 Great, then my advice is, if you are amongst the most respected and best selling authors, feel free to use footnotes. I don't, I consider them bad form, just like I consider a heavy reliance on '-ly' adverbs as bad form. But Rowling is the best selling author of all time and uses them liberally. Guess what? Agents and publishers still don't like them, go figure. Famous authors have strengths that outweigh their weaknesses, what King or Brown or Rowling do is not sacred and not automatically good. You considering that "incontrovertible proof" is a logic error on your part.
                – Amadeus
                yesterday




                @user57423 Great, then my advice is, if you are amongst the most respected and best selling authors, feel free to use footnotes. I don't, I consider them bad form, just like I consider a heavy reliance on '-ly' adverbs as bad form. But Rowling is the best selling author of all time and uses them liberally. Guess what? Agents and publishers still don't like them, go figure. Famous authors have strengths that outweigh their weaknesses, what King or Brown or Rowling do is not sacred and not automatically good. You considering that "incontrovertible proof" is a logic error on your part.
                – Amadeus
                yesterday












                @Amadeus, a very helpful link, thanks
                – vanity
                yesterday




                @Amadeus, a very helpful link, thanks
                – vanity
                yesterday











                6














                I would recommend just leaving it completely untranslated and let the reader pick up the basic meaning from context. In this case, we only really need to know SAHU is an insult and the direct translation is unimportant.



                If it is important for the reader to know what a single specific word means, just have another character ask, what you mean by SAHU? Or have the character to say the foreign word and then search for an English equivalent. Those should be used very sparingly though as it would quickly get tiring.






                share|improve this answer








                New contributor




                Hink is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                Check out our Code of Conduct.























                  6














                  I would recommend just leaving it completely untranslated and let the reader pick up the basic meaning from context. In this case, we only really need to know SAHU is an insult and the direct translation is unimportant.



                  If it is important for the reader to know what a single specific word means, just have another character ask, what you mean by SAHU? Or have the character to say the foreign word and then search for an English equivalent. Those should be used very sparingly though as it would quickly get tiring.






                  share|improve this answer








                  New contributor




                  Hink is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                  Check out our Code of Conduct.





















                    6












                    6








                    6






                    I would recommend just leaving it completely untranslated and let the reader pick up the basic meaning from context. In this case, we only really need to know SAHU is an insult and the direct translation is unimportant.



                    If it is important for the reader to know what a single specific word means, just have another character ask, what you mean by SAHU? Or have the character to say the foreign word and then search for an English equivalent. Those should be used very sparingly though as it would quickly get tiring.






                    share|improve this answer








                    New contributor




                    Hink is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                    Check out our Code of Conduct.









                    I would recommend just leaving it completely untranslated and let the reader pick up the basic meaning from context. In this case, we only really need to know SAHU is an insult and the direct translation is unimportant.



                    If it is important for the reader to know what a single specific word means, just have another character ask, what you mean by SAHU? Or have the character to say the foreign word and then search for an English equivalent. Those should be used very sparingly though as it would quickly get tiring.







                    share|improve this answer








                    New contributor




                    Hink is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                    Check out our Code of Conduct.









                    share|improve this answer



                    share|improve this answer






                    New contributor




                    Hink is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                    Check out our Code of Conduct.









                    answered yesterday









                    HinkHink

                    1611




                    1611




                    New contributor




                    Hink is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                    Check out our Code of Conduct.





                    New contributor





                    Hink is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                    Check out our Code of Conduct.






                    Hink is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                    Check out our Code of Conduct.























                        3














                        I took riding lessons from a Polish gentleman - former lieutenant in the Polish Cavalry, spent time as a Vaccaro so his credentials were impeccable.



                        Occasionally, when we were not picking up what he was putting down, he would start to speak Polish. It was our assumption that he was swearing or at the very least, extremely frustrated with us. We would try that much harder to please him. He was an excellent instructor.



                        Have your character swear in whatever language you choose. The sudden insertion of a word the reader does not know but clearly is of another language - real or imagined - comes across as an insult or swearing.






                        share|improve this answer


























                          3














                          I took riding lessons from a Polish gentleman - former lieutenant in the Polish Cavalry, spent time as a Vaccaro so his credentials were impeccable.



                          Occasionally, when we were not picking up what he was putting down, he would start to speak Polish. It was our assumption that he was swearing or at the very least, extremely frustrated with us. We would try that much harder to please him. He was an excellent instructor.



                          Have your character swear in whatever language you choose. The sudden insertion of a word the reader does not know but clearly is of another language - real or imagined - comes across as an insult or swearing.






                          share|improve this answer
























                            3












                            3








                            3






                            I took riding lessons from a Polish gentleman - former lieutenant in the Polish Cavalry, spent time as a Vaccaro so his credentials were impeccable.



                            Occasionally, when we were not picking up what he was putting down, he would start to speak Polish. It was our assumption that he was swearing or at the very least, extremely frustrated with us. We would try that much harder to please him. He was an excellent instructor.



                            Have your character swear in whatever language you choose. The sudden insertion of a word the reader does not know but clearly is of another language - real or imagined - comes across as an insult or swearing.






                            share|improve this answer












                            I took riding lessons from a Polish gentleman - former lieutenant in the Polish Cavalry, spent time as a Vaccaro so his credentials were impeccable.



                            Occasionally, when we were not picking up what he was putting down, he would start to speak Polish. It was our assumption that he was swearing or at the very least, extremely frustrated with us. We would try that much harder to please him. He was an excellent instructor.



                            Have your character swear in whatever language you choose. The sudden insertion of a word the reader does not know but clearly is of another language - real or imagined - comes across as an insult or swearing.







                            share|improve this answer












                            share|improve this answer



                            share|improve this answer










                            answered yesterday









                            RasdashanRasdashan

                            3,421730




                            3,421730























                                3














                                Footnotes in fiction



                                Many contemporary works of fiction use footnotes. Here are a few:




                                • Nicholson Baker, The Mezzanine

                                • Mark Haddon, The Curious Incident of the Dog in the Night-Time

                                • Susanna Clarke, Jonathan Strange & Mr Norrell

                                • Vladimir Nabokov, Pale Fire

                                • Junot Diaz, The Brief Wondrous life of Oscar Wao

                                • David Foster Wallace, Infinite Jest

                                • Mark Z. Danielewski, House of Leaves

                                • David Mitchell, Cloud Atlas


                                Look at the books to see how footnotes are employed and to what effect. Here is a long list of fiction that uses footnotes or endnotes. Some of the most famous authors use footnotes and you can find footnotes in some New York Times best selling fiction, so claiming that footnotes must not be used in fiction is both ignorant and foolish. There is even a TVTropes page about footnotes in fiction.



                                Translations in footnotes



                                Terry Pratchett often uses footnotes to translate fictional terms. Kate Horsley uses footnotes to translate Latin and Gaelic passages in Confessions of a Pagan Nun. John Green also provides translations in the footnotes in An Abundance of Katherines. The footnotes in The Athenian Murders by Jose Carlos Somoza offer translations and comments by the fictional translator.



                                Your examples



                                I agree with the other answers that translations are unnecessary in your case.






                                share|improve this answer



















                                • 4




                                  Do any of them use footnotes specifically to translate foreign words?
                                  – F1Krazy
                                  yesterday






                                • 1




                                  @F1Krazy I knew you would ask. See my edit.
                                  – user57423
                                  yesterday






                                • 1




                                  Not a single one of the numerous footnotes in Jonathan Strange & Mr. Norrell is used to translate foreign words. Not familiar with the other examples, so can't comment on them.
                                  – Galastel
                                  yesterday






                                • 1




                                  @Galastel I didn't claim there were.
                                  – user57423
                                  yesterday










                                • @user57423, very helpful links, thanks
                                  – vanity
                                  yesterday
















                                3














                                Footnotes in fiction



                                Many contemporary works of fiction use footnotes. Here are a few:




                                • Nicholson Baker, The Mezzanine

                                • Mark Haddon, The Curious Incident of the Dog in the Night-Time

                                • Susanna Clarke, Jonathan Strange & Mr Norrell

                                • Vladimir Nabokov, Pale Fire

                                • Junot Diaz, The Brief Wondrous life of Oscar Wao

                                • David Foster Wallace, Infinite Jest

                                • Mark Z. Danielewski, House of Leaves

                                • David Mitchell, Cloud Atlas


                                Look at the books to see how footnotes are employed and to what effect. Here is a long list of fiction that uses footnotes or endnotes. Some of the most famous authors use footnotes and you can find footnotes in some New York Times best selling fiction, so claiming that footnotes must not be used in fiction is both ignorant and foolish. There is even a TVTropes page about footnotes in fiction.



                                Translations in footnotes



                                Terry Pratchett often uses footnotes to translate fictional terms. Kate Horsley uses footnotes to translate Latin and Gaelic passages in Confessions of a Pagan Nun. John Green also provides translations in the footnotes in An Abundance of Katherines. The footnotes in The Athenian Murders by Jose Carlos Somoza offer translations and comments by the fictional translator.



                                Your examples



                                I agree with the other answers that translations are unnecessary in your case.






                                share|improve this answer



















                                • 4




                                  Do any of them use footnotes specifically to translate foreign words?
                                  – F1Krazy
                                  yesterday






                                • 1




                                  @F1Krazy I knew you would ask. See my edit.
                                  – user57423
                                  yesterday






                                • 1




                                  Not a single one of the numerous footnotes in Jonathan Strange & Mr. Norrell is used to translate foreign words. Not familiar with the other examples, so can't comment on them.
                                  – Galastel
                                  yesterday






                                • 1




                                  @Galastel I didn't claim there were.
                                  – user57423
                                  yesterday










                                • @user57423, very helpful links, thanks
                                  – vanity
                                  yesterday














                                3












                                3








                                3






                                Footnotes in fiction



                                Many contemporary works of fiction use footnotes. Here are a few:




                                • Nicholson Baker, The Mezzanine

                                • Mark Haddon, The Curious Incident of the Dog in the Night-Time

                                • Susanna Clarke, Jonathan Strange & Mr Norrell

                                • Vladimir Nabokov, Pale Fire

                                • Junot Diaz, The Brief Wondrous life of Oscar Wao

                                • David Foster Wallace, Infinite Jest

                                • Mark Z. Danielewski, House of Leaves

                                • David Mitchell, Cloud Atlas


                                Look at the books to see how footnotes are employed and to what effect. Here is a long list of fiction that uses footnotes or endnotes. Some of the most famous authors use footnotes and you can find footnotes in some New York Times best selling fiction, so claiming that footnotes must not be used in fiction is both ignorant and foolish. There is even a TVTropes page about footnotes in fiction.



                                Translations in footnotes



                                Terry Pratchett often uses footnotes to translate fictional terms. Kate Horsley uses footnotes to translate Latin and Gaelic passages in Confessions of a Pagan Nun. John Green also provides translations in the footnotes in An Abundance of Katherines. The footnotes in The Athenian Murders by Jose Carlos Somoza offer translations and comments by the fictional translator.



                                Your examples



                                I agree with the other answers that translations are unnecessary in your case.






                                share|improve this answer














                                Footnotes in fiction



                                Many contemporary works of fiction use footnotes. Here are a few:




                                • Nicholson Baker, The Mezzanine

                                • Mark Haddon, The Curious Incident of the Dog in the Night-Time

                                • Susanna Clarke, Jonathan Strange & Mr Norrell

                                • Vladimir Nabokov, Pale Fire

                                • Junot Diaz, The Brief Wondrous life of Oscar Wao

                                • David Foster Wallace, Infinite Jest

                                • Mark Z. Danielewski, House of Leaves

                                • David Mitchell, Cloud Atlas


                                Look at the books to see how footnotes are employed and to what effect. Here is a long list of fiction that uses footnotes or endnotes. Some of the most famous authors use footnotes and you can find footnotes in some New York Times best selling fiction, so claiming that footnotes must not be used in fiction is both ignorant and foolish. There is even a TVTropes page about footnotes in fiction.



                                Translations in footnotes



                                Terry Pratchett often uses footnotes to translate fictional terms. Kate Horsley uses footnotes to translate Latin and Gaelic passages in Confessions of a Pagan Nun. John Green also provides translations in the footnotes in An Abundance of Katherines. The footnotes in The Athenian Murders by Jose Carlos Somoza offer translations and comments by the fictional translator.



                                Your examples



                                I agree with the other answers that translations are unnecessary in your case.







                                share|improve this answer














                                share|improve this answer



                                share|improve this answer








                                edited yesterday

























                                answered yesterday









                                user57423user57423

                                8311425




                                8311425








                                • 4




                                  Do any of them use footnotes specifically to translate foreign words?
                                  – F1Krazy
                                  yesterday






                                • 1




                                  @F1Krazy I knew you would ask. See my edit.
                                  – user57423
                                  yesterday






                                • 1




                                  Not a single one of the numerous footnotes in Jonathan Strange & Mr. Norrell is used to translate foreign words. Not familiar with the other examples, so can't comment on them.
                                  – Galastel
                                  yesterday






                                • 1




                                  @Galastel I didn't claim there were.
                                  – user57423
                                  yesterday










                                • @user57423, very helpful links, thanks
                                  – vanity
                                  yesterday














                                • 4




                                  Do any of them use footnotes specifically to translate foreign words?
                                  – F1Krazy
                                  yesterday






                                • 1




                                  @F1Krazy I knew you would ask. See my edit.
                                  – user57423
                                  yesterday






                                • 1




                                  Not a single one of the numerous footnotes in Jonathan Strange & Mr. Norrell is used to translate foreign words. Not familiar with the other examples, so can't comment on them.
                                  – Galastel
                                  yesterday






                                • 1




                                  @Galastel I didn't claim there were.
                                  – user57423
                                  yesterday










                                • @user57423, very helpful links, thanks
                                  – vanity
                                  yesterday








                                4




                                4




                                Do any of them use footnotes specifically to translate foreign words?
                                – F1Krazy
                                yesterday




                                Do any of them use footnotes specifically to translate foreign words?
                                – F1Krazy
                                yesterday




                                1




                                1




                                @F1Krazy I knew you would ask. See my edit.
                                – user57423
                                yesterday




                                @F1Krazy I knew you would ask. See my edit.
                                – user57423
                                yesterday




                                1




                                1




                                Not a single one of the numerous footnotes in Jonathan Strange & Mr. Norrell is used to translate foreign words. Not familiar with the other examples, so can't comment on them.
                                – Galastel
                                yesterday




                                Not a single one of the numerous footnotes in Jonathan Strange & Mr. Norrell is used to translate foreign words. Not familiar with the other examples, so can't comment on them.
                                – Galastel
                                yesterday




                                1




                                1




                                @Galastel I didn't claim there were.
                                – user57423
                                yesterday




                                @Galastel I didn't claim there were.
                                – user57423
                                yesterday












                                @user57423, very helpful links, thanks
                                – vanity
                                yesterday




                                @user57423, very helpful links, thanks
                                – vanity
                                yesterday











                                2














                                While footnotes are unusual in fiction literature, there are a few examples. The one that uses them for translation that I know is Liu Cixin's "Three Body Problem" trilogy as well as his short stories. They are originally written in chinese. In the english translation, the translator has inserted footnotes whenever a phrase or term or especially name could not be cleanly translated without losing, for example, a double meaning. They are also used to provide context for all of these things.



                                The thing I noticed is that the footnote is never just a translation. It always is at least a full sentence that gives some context.



                                Taking from that example, I would suggest the use of footnotes if you need to add details that would break the flow, and are important enough to include, but the reader can without harm decide to jump to the footnote right now, or at the end of the sentence, paragraph or chapter.






                                share|improve this answer





















                                • Of course the translator is constrained by the author's words, he can't insert information in any other way than footnotes. Whereas an author has other tools in their arsenal.
                                  – Galastel
                                  8 hours ago






                                • 1




                                  That is certainly a reason. But the way it was done makes it actually enjoyable to have these footnotes. They add value.
                                  – Tom
                                  7 hours ago










                                • @Tom very helpful notes, thanks.
                                  – vanity
                                  2 hours ago










                                • @Galastel very helpful notes, thanks.
                                  – vanity
                                  2 hours ago
















                                2














                                While footnotes are unusual in fiction literature, there are a few examples. The one that uses them for translation that I know is Liu Cixin's "Three Body Problem" trilogy as well as his short stories. They are originally written in chinese. In the english translation, the translator has inserted footnotes whenever a phrase or term or especially name could not be cleanly translated without losing, for example, a double meaning. They are also used to provide context for all of these things.



                                The thing I noticed is that the footnote is never just a translation. It always is at least a full sentence that gives some context.



                                Taking from that example, I would suggest the use of footnotes if you need to add details that would break the flow, and are important enough to include, but the reader can without harm decide to jump to the footnote right now, or at the end of the sentence, paragraph or chapter.






                                share|improve this answer





















                                • Of course the translator is constrained by the author's words, he can't insert information in any other way than footnotes. Whereas an author has other tools in their arsenal.
                                  – Galastel
                                  8 hours ago






                                • 1




                                  That is certainly a reason. But the way it was done makes it actually enjoyable to have these footnotes. They add value.
                                  – Tom
                                  7 hours ago










                                • @Tom very helpful notes, thanks.
                                  – vanity
                                  2 hours ago










                                • @Galastel very helpful notes, thanks.
                                  – vanity
                                  2 hours ago














                                2












                                2








                                2






                                While footnotes are unusual in fiction literature, there are a few examples. The one that uses them for translation that I know is Liu Cixin's "Three Body Problem" trilogy as well as his short stories. They are originally written in chinese. In the english translation, the translator has inserted footnotes whenever a phrase or term or especially name could not be cleanly translated without losing, for example, a double meaning. They are also used to provide context for all of these things.



                                The thing I noticed is that the footnote is never just a translation. It always is at least a full sentence that gives some context.



                                Taking from that example, I would suggest the use of footnotes if you need to add details that would break the flow, and are important enough to include, but the reader can without harm decide to jump to the footnote right now, or at the end of the sentence, paragraph or chapter.






                                share|improve this answer












                                While footnotes are unusual in fiction literature, there are a few examples. The one that uses them for translation that I know is Liu Cixin's "Three Body Problem" trilogy as well as his short stories. They are originally written in chinese. In the english translation, the translator has inserted footnotes whenever a phrase or term or especially name could not be cleanly translated without losing, for example, a double meaning. They are also used to provide context for all of these things.



                                The thing I noticed is that the footnote is never just a translation. It always is at least a full sentence that gives some context.



                                Taking from that example, I would suggest the use of footnotes if you need to add details that would break the flow, and are important enough to include, but the reader can without harm decide to jump to the footnote right now, or at the end of the sentence, paragraph or chapter.







                                share|improve this answer












                                share|improve this answer



                                share|improve this answer










                                answered 8 hours ago









                                TomTom

                                2,27347




                                2,27347












                                • Of course the translator is constrained by the author's words, he can't insert information in any other way than footnotes. Whereas an author has other tools in their arsenal.
                                  – Galastel
                                  8 hours ago






                                • 1




                                  That is certainly a reason. But the way it was done makes it actually enjoyable to have these footnotes. They add value.
                                  – Tom
                                  7 hours ago










                                • @Tom very helpful notes, thanks.
                                  – vanity
                                  2 hours ago










                                • @Galastel very helpful notes, thanks.
                                  – vanity
                                  2 hours ago


















                                • Of course the translator is constrained by the author's words, he can't insert information in any other way than footnotes. Whereas an author has other tools in their arsenal.
                                  – Galastel
                                  8 hours ago






                                • 1




                                  That is certainly a reason. But the way it was done makes it actually enjoyable to have these footnotes. They add value.
                                  – Tom
                                  7 hours ago










                                • @Tom very helpful notes, thanks.
                                  – vanity
                                  2 hours ago










                                • @Galastel very helpful notes, thanks.
                                  – vanity
                                  2 hours ago
















                                Of course the translator is constrained by the author's words, he can't insert information in any other way than footnotes. Whereas an author has other tools in their arsenal.
                                – Galastel
                                8 hours ago




                                Of course the translator is constrained by the author's words, he can't insert information in any other way than footnotes. Whereas an author has other tools in their arsenal.
                                – Galastel
                                8 hours ago




                                1




                                1




                                That is certainly a reason. But the way it was done makes it actually enjoyable to have these footnotes. They add value.
                                – Tom
                                7 hours ago




                                That is certainly a reason. But the way it was done makes it actually enjoyable to have these footnotes. They add value.
                                – Tom
                                7 hours ago












                                @Tom very helpful notes, thanks.
                                – vanity
                                2 hours ago




                                @Tom very helpful notes, thanks.
                                – vanity
                                2 hours ago












                                @Galastel very helpful notes, thanks.
                                – vanity
                                2 hours ago




                                @Galastel very helpful notes, thanks.
                                – vanity
                                2 hours ago










                                vanity is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.










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