Does an element of a set, that can't be in a list, make that set uncountable?












2














We can map the infinite subsets of $mathbb N$ to the finite subsets of $mathbb N$



The finite subset will be a prefix, of the infinite subset (that it is paired with), that has not yet been used.




$1 mapsto { color{red}{1} ,2,3,4,5,6,7,8 dots } mapsto { color{red}{1} }$



$2 mapsto { color{red}{2} ,4,6,8,10,12,14 dots } mapsto { color{red}{2} }$



$3 mapsto { color{red}{1,3} ,5,7,9,11,13,15 dots } mapsto { color{red}{1,3} }$



$4 mapsto { color{red}{1,2} ,3,7,9,19,27,31 dots } mapsto { color{red}{1,2} }$



$5 mapsto { color{red}{1,2,3} ,4,21,22,25,32 dots } mapsto { color{red}{1,2,3} }$



$6 mapsto { color{red}{2,3} ,4,6,7,8,21,55,58 dots } mapsto { color{red}{2,3} }$



$7 mapsto { color{red}{2,3,4} ,6,7,8,9,21,55,58 dots } mapsto { color{red}{2,3,4} }$



$8 mapsto { color{red}{2,3,4,6} ,7,9,21,55,58 dots } mapsto { color{red}{2,3,4,6} }$



$9 mapsto { color{red}{2,3,4,6,7} ,6,7,8,21,55,58 dots } mapsto { color{red}{2,3,4,6,7} }$



$dots$




We can then find an infinite set that is not in this list (by diagonalization).




$N mapsto { color{red}{4,5,8,9,dots} } mapsto { color{red}{4} } lor { color{red}{4,5} } lor { color{red}{4,5,8} } lor{ color{red}{4,5,8,9} } dots$




We can then pair our infinite set, that can't be in our list, with ${ color{red}{4} }$ if it is not been used or ${ color{red}{4,5} }$ or ${ color{red}{4,5,8} }$ etc... until we find some finite set that has not been used.



Since we need sets with a finite number of elements, and we have sets with an infinite number of elements to choose from, we will always find a finite prefix from each infinite set.



So, if we can find a finite set for every infinite set IN or NOT IN our list, and our set of finite sets is countable then can we still say that our set of infinite sets is uncountable based on there being an element that can't be in a list?






elementary-set-theory







share|cite|improve this question
























  • I'm confused---what, exactly, is your question? If I understand it correctly, you are trying to determine if the set of finite subsets of $mathbb{N}$ is countable. That is, is the set $$bigcup_{n=1}^{infty} mathbb{N}^n$$ countable? If this is your question, then a countable union of countable sets is countable. Or are you asking about the set of infinite sequences with elements in $mathbb{N}$, which is uncountable by a diagonalization argument?
    – Xander Henderson
    2 days ago






  • 1




    math.stackexchange.com/questions/2873936/…
    – Asaf Karagila♦
    2 days ago
















2














We can map the infinite subsets of $mathbb N$ to the finite subsets of $mathbb N$



The finite subset will be a prefix, of the infinite subset (that it is paired with), that has not yet been used.




$1 mapsto { color{red}{1} ,2,3,4,5,6,7,8 dots } mapsto { color{red}{1} }$



$2 mapsto { color{red}{2} ,4,6,8,10,12,14 dots } mapsto { color{red}{2} }$



$3 mapsto { color{red}{1,3} ,5,7,9,11,13,15 dots } mapsto { color{red}{1,3} }$



$4 mapsto { color{red}{1,2} ,3,7,9,19,27,31 dots } mapsto { color{red}{1,2} }$



$5 mapsto { color{red}{1,2,3} ,4,21,22,25,32 dots } mapsto { color{red}{1,2,3} }$



$6 mapsto { color{red}{2,3} ,4,6,7,8,21,55,58 dots } mapsto { color{red}{2,3} }$



$7 mapsto { color{red}{2,3,4} ,6,7,8,9,21,55,58 dots } mapsto { color{red}{2,3,4} }$



$8 mapsto { color{red}{2,3,4,6} ,7,9,21,55,58 dots } mapsto { color{red}{2,3,4,6} }$



$9 mapsto { color{red}{2,3,4,6,7} ,6,7,8,21,55,58 dots } mapsto { color{red}{2,3,4,6,7} }$



$dots$




We can then find an infinite set that is not in this list (by diagonalization).




$N mapsto { color{red}{4,5,8,9,dots} } mapsto { color{red}{4} } lor { color{red}{4,5} } lor { color{red}{4,5,8} } lor{ color{red}{4,5,8,9} } dots$




We can then pair our infinite set, that can't be in our list, with ${ color{red}{4} }$ if it is not been used or ${ color{red}{4,5} }$ or ${ color{red}{4,5,8} }$ etc... until we find some finite set that has not been used.



Since we need sets with a finite number of elements, and we have sets with an infinite number of elements to choose from, we will always find a finite prefix from each infinite set.



So, if we can find a finite set for every infinite set IN or NOT IN our list, and our set of finite sets is countable then can we still say that our set of infinite sets is uncountable based on there being an element that can't be in a list?






elementary-set-theory







share|cite|improve this question
























  • I'm confused---what, exactly, is your question? If I understand it correctly, you are trying to determine if the set of finite subsets of $mathbb{N}$ is countable. That is, is the set $$bigcup_{n=1}^{infty} mathbb{N}^n$$ countable? If this is your question, then a countable union of countable sets is countable. Or are you asking about the set of infinite sequences with elements in $mathbb{N}$, which is uncountable by a diagonalization argument?
    – Xander Henderson
    2 days ago






  • 1




    math.stackexchange.com/questions/2873936/…
    – Asaf Karagila♦
    2 days ago














2












2








2


0





We can map the infinite subsets of $mathbb N$ to the finite subsets of $mathbb N$



The finite subset will be a prefix, of the infinite subset (that it is paired with), that has not yet been used.




$1 mapsto { color{red}{1} ,2,3,4,5,6,7,8 dots } mapsto { color{red}{1} }$



$2 mapsto { color{red}{2} ,4,6,8,10,12,14 dots } mapsto { color{red}{2} }$



$3 mapsto { color{red}{1,3} ,5,7,9,11,13,15 dots } mapsto { color{red}{1,3} }$



$4 mapsto { color{red}{1,2} ,3,7,9,19,27,31 dots } mapsto { color{red}{1,2} }$



$5 mapsto { color{red}{1,2,3} ,4,21,22,25,32 dots } mapsto { color{red}{1,2,3} }$



$6 mapsto { color{red}{2,3} ,4,6,7,8,21,55,58 dots } mapsto { color{red}{2,3} }$



$7 mapsto { color{red}{2,3,4} ,6,7,8,9,21,55,58 dots } mapsto { color{red}{2,3,4} }$



$8 mapsto { color{red}{2,3,4,6} ,7,9,21,55,58 dots } mapsto { color{red}{2,3,4,6} }$



$9 mapsto { color{red}{2,3,4,6,7} ,6,7,8,21,55,58 dots } mapsto { color{red}{2,3,4,6,7} }$



$dots$




We can then find an infinite set that is not in this list (by diagonalization).




$N mapsto { color{red}{4,5,8,9,dots} } mapsto { color{red}{4} } lor { color{red}{4,5} } lor { color{red}{4,5,8} } lor{ color{red}{4,5,8,9} } dots$




We can then pair our infinite set, that can't be in our list, with ${ color{red}{4} }$ if it is not been used or ${ color{red}{4,5} }$ or ${ color{red}{4,5,8} }$ etc... until we find some finite set that has not been used.



Since we need sets with a finite number of elements, and we have sets with an infinite number of elements to choose from, we will always find a finite prefix from each infinite set.



So, if we can find a finite set for every infinite set IN or NOT IN our list, and our set of finite sets is countable then can we still say that our set of infinite sets is uncountable based on there being an element that can't be in a list?






elementary-set-theory







share|cite|improve this question















We can map the infinite subsets of $mathbb N$ to the finite subsets of $mathbb N$



The finite subset will be a prefix, of the infinite subset (that it is paired with), that has not yet been used.




$1 mapsto { color{red}{1} ,2,3,4,5,6,7,8 dots } mapsto { color{red}{1} }$



$2 mapsto { color{red}{2} ,4,6,8,10,12,14 dots } mapsto { color{red}{2} }$



$3 mapsto { color{red}{1,3} ,5,7,9,11,13,15 dots } mapsto { color{red}{1,3} }$



$4 mapsto { color{red}{1,2} ,3,7,9,19,27,31 dots } mapsto { color{red}{1,2} }$



$5 mapsto { color{red}{1,2,3} ,4,21,22,25,32 dots } mapsto { color{red}{1,2,3} }$



$6 mapsto { color{red}{2,3} ,4,6,7,8,21,55,58 dots } mapsto { color{red}{2,3} }$



$7 mapsto { color{red}{2,3,4} ,6,7,8,9,21,55,58 dots } mapsto { color{red}{2,3,4} }$



$8 mapsto { color{red}{2,3,4,6} ,7,9,21,55,58 dots } mapsto { color{red}{2,3,4,6} }$



$9 mapsto { color{red}{2,3,4,6,7} ,6,7,8,21,55,58 dots } mapsto { color{red}{2,3,4,6,7} }$



$dots$




We can then find an infinite set that is not in this list (by diagonalization).




$N mapsto { color{red}{4,5,8,9,dots} } mapsto { color{red}{4} } lor { color{red}{4,5} } lor { color{red}{4,5,8} } lor{ color{red}{4,5,8,9} } dots$




We can then pair our infinite set, that can't be in our list, with ${ color{red}{4} }$ if it is not been used or ${ color{red}{4,5} }$ or ${ color{red}{4,5,8} }$ etc... until we find some finite set that has not been used.



Since we need sets with a finite number of elements, and we have sets with an infinite number of elements to choose from, we will always find a finite prefix from each infinite set.



So, if we can find a finite set for every infinite set IN or NOT IN our list, and our set of finite sets is countable then can we still say that our set of infinite sets is uncountable based on there being an element that can't be in a list?






elementary-set-theory




elementary-set-theory






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share|cite|improve this question













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edited 2 days ago







Ivan Hieno

















asked 2 days ago









Ivan HienoIvan Hieno

1659




1659












  • I'm confused---what, exactly, is your question? If I understand it correctly, you are trying to determine if the set of finite subsets of $mathbb{N}$ is countable. That is, is the set $$bigcup_{n=1}^{infty} mathbb{N}^n$$ countable? If this is your question, then a countable union of countable sets is countable. Or are you asking about the set of infinite sequences with elements in $mathbb{N}$, which is uncountable by a diagonalization argument?
    – Xander Henderson
    2 days ago






  • 1




    math.stackexchange.com/questions/2873936/…
    – Asaf Karagila♦
    2 days ago


















  • I'm confused---what, exactly, is your question? If I understand it correctly, you are trying to determine if the set of finite subsets of $mathbb{N}$ is countable. That is, is the set $$bigcup_{n=1}^{infty} mathbb{N}^n$$ countable? If this is your question, then a countable union of countable sets is countable. Or are you asking about the set of infinite sequences with elements in $mathbb{N}$, which is uncountable by a diagonalization argument?
    – Xander Henderson
    2 days ago






  • 1




    math.stackexchange.com/questions/2873936/…
    – Asaf Karagila♦
    2 days ago
















I'm confused---what, exactly, is your question? If I understand it correctly, you are trying to determine if the set of finite subsets of $mathbb{N}$ is countable. That is, is the set $$bigcup_{n=1}^{infty} mathbb{N}^n$$ countable? If this is your question, then a countable union of countable sets is countable. Or are you asking about the set of infinite sequences with elements in $mathbb{N}$, which is uncountable by a diagonalization argument?
– Xander Henderson
2 days ago




I'm confused---what, exactly, is your question? If I understand it correctly, you are trying to determine if the set of finite subsets of $mathbb{N}$ is countable. That is, is the set $$bigcup_{n=1}^{infty} mathbb{N}^n$$ countable? If this is your question, then a countable union of countable sets is countable. Or are you asking about the set of infinite sequences with elements in $mathbb{N}$, which is uncountable by a diagonalization argument?
– Xander Henderson
2 days ago




1




1




math.stackexchange.com/questions/2873936/…
– Asaf Karagila♦
2 days ago




math.stackexchange.com/questions/2873936/…
– Asaf Karagila♦
2 days ago










2 Answers
2






active

oldest

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5














Your question is moot, since the motivating "fact" is false.




The culprit is your implicit claim in the sentence




until we find some finite set that has not been used.




How do we know such a thing exists at all?



For example, let $(F_i)_{iinmathbb{N}}$ enumerate the finite sets, and let $X_i=F_icup (max(F_i),infty)$ (I'm just taking the unions above in order to make each of my $X_i$s infinite). Note that $F_i$ is a prefix of $X_i$. I can map each $X_i$ to $F_i$, and this seems to work ... but now I've used up every finite set, and when I come to my next infinite set - say, the set of evens - I'm stuck.



Now you might argue that I built my map stupidly above, but the point is that the onus is on you to prove that there is a non-stupid way to "continue building forever." And indeed, one of the consequences of Cantor's theorem is that there isn't.






share|cite|improve this answer



















  • 1




    Incidentally, a similar instance of the "I don't know where exactly you'll run out of room, but you will eventually" is Fodor's lemma, but that's much more complicated.
    – Noah Schweber
    2 days ago





















5














Even though that specific infinite subset isn't in our list, we can still have all its finite prefixes in our list of finite subsets.



For instance, say the 10th infinite subset in your list is ${4, ldots}$. Then the 20th is ${4, 5, ldots}$. Then the 30th is ${4, 5, 8, ldots}$. And so on. None of them have to be your infinite set, all of them can be different from your infinite set early enough to allow your set to be the result of the diagonalization. But all of your set's prefixes are in our list of finite subsets.






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    2 Answers
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    2 Answers
    2






    active

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    active

    oldest

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    active

    oldest

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    5














    Your question is moot, since the motivating "fact" is false.




    The culprit is your implicit claim in the sentence




    until we find some finite set that has not been used.




    How do we know such a thing exists at all?



    For example, let $(F_i)_{iinmathbb{N}}$ enumerate the finite sets, and let $X_i=F_icup (max(F_i),infty)$ (I'm just taking the unions above in order to make each of my $X_i$s infinite). Note that $F_i$ is a prefix of $X_i$. I can map each $X_i$ to $F_i$, and this seems to work ... but now I've used up every finite set, and when I come to my next infinite set - say, the set of evens - I'm stuck.



    Now you might argue that I built my map stupidly above, but the point is that the onus is on you to prove that there is a non-stupid way to "continue building forever." And indeed, one of the consequences of Cantor's theorem is that there isn't.






    share|cite|improve this answer



















    • 1




      Incidentally, a similar instance of the "I don't know where exactly you'll run out of room, but you will eventually" is Fodor's lemma, but that's much more complicated.
      – Noah Schweber
      2 days ago


















    5














    Your question is moot, since the motivating "fact" is false.




    The culprit is your implicit claim in the sentence




    until we find some finite set that has not been used.




    How do we know such a thing exists at all?



    For example, let $(F_i)_{iinmathbb{N}}$ enumerate the finite sets, and let $X_i=F_icup (max(F_i),infty)$ (I'm just taking the unions above in order to make each of my $X_i$s infinite). Note that $F_i$ is a prefix of $X_i$. I can map each $X_i$ to $F_i$, and this seems to work ... but now I've used up every finite set, and when I come to my next infinite set - say, the set of evens - I'm stuck.



    Now you might argue that I built my map stupidly above, but the point is that the onus is on you to prove that there is a non-stupid way to "continue building forever." And indeed, one of the consequences of Cantor's theorem is that there isn't.






    share|cite|improve this answer



















    • 1




      Incidentally, a similar instance of the "I don't know where exactly you'll run out of room, but you will eventually" is Fodor's lemma, but that's much more complicated.
      – Noah Schweber
      2 days ago
















    5












    5








    5






    Your question is moot, since the motivating "fact" is false.




    The culprit is your implicit claim in the sentence




    until we find some finite set that has not been used.




    How do we know such a thing exists at all?



    For example, let $(F_i)_{iinmathbb{N}}$ enumerate the finite sets, and let $X_i=F_icup (max(F_i),infty)$ (I'm just taking the unions above in order to make each of my $X_i$s infinite). Note that $F_i$ is a prefix of $X_i$. I can map each $X_i$ to $F_i$, and this seems to work ... but now I've used up every finite set, and when I come to my next infinite set - say, the set of evens - I'm stuck.



    Now you might argue that I built my map stupidly above, but the point is that the onus is on you to prove that there is a non-stupid way to "continue building forever." And indeed, one of the consequences of Cantor's theorem is that there isn't.






    share|cite|improve this answer














    Your question is moot, since the motivating "fact" is false.




    The culprit is your implicit claim in the sentence




    until we find some finite set that has not been used.




    How do we know such a thing exists at all?



    For example, let $(F_i)_{iinmathbb{N}}$ enumerate the finite sets, and let $X_i=F_icup (max(F_i),infty)$ (I'm just taking the unions above in order to make each of my $X_i$s infinite). Note that $F_i$ is a prefix of $X_i$. I can map each $X_i$ to $F_i$, and this seems to work ... but now I've used up every finite set, and when I come to my next infinite set - say, the set of evens - I'm stuck.



    Now you might argue that I built my map stupidly above, but the point is that the onus is on you to prove that there is a non-stupid way to "continue building forever." And indeed, one of the consequences of Cantor's theorem is that there isn't.







    share|cite|improve this answer














    share|cite|improve this answer



    share|cite|improve this answer








    edited 2 days ago

























    answered 2 days ago









    Noah SchweberNoah Schweber

    122k10149284




    122k10149284








    • 1




      Incidentally, a similar instance of the "I don't know where exactly you'll run out of room, but you will eventually" is Fodor's lemma, but that's much more complicated.
      – Noah Schweber
      2 days ago
















    • 1




      Incidentally, a similar instance of the "I don't know where exactly you'll run out of room, but you will eventually" is Fodor's lemma, but that's much more complicated.
      – Noah Schweber
      2 days ago










    1




    1




    Incidentally, a similar instance of the "I don't know where exactly you'll run out of room, but you will eventually" is Fodor's lemma, but that's much more complicated.
    – Noah Schweber
    2 days ago






    Incidentally, a similar instance of the "I don't know where exactly you'll run out of room, but you will eventually" is Fodor's lemma, but that's much more complicated.
    – Noah Schweber
    2 days ago













    5














    Even though that specific infinite subset isn't in our list, we can still have all its finite prefixes in our list of finite subsets.



    For instance, say the 10th infinite subset in your list is ${4, ldots}$. Then the 20th is ${4, 5, ldots}$. Then the 30th is ${4, 5, 8, ldots}$. And so on. None of them have to be your infinite set, all of them can be different from your infinite set early enough to allow your set to be the result of the diagonalization. But all of your set's prefixes are in our list of finite subsets.






    share|cite|improve this answer




























      5














      Even though that specific infinite subset isn't in our list, we can still have all its finite prefixes in our list of finite subsets.



      For instance, say the 10th infinite subset in your list is ${4, ldots}$. Then the 20th is ${4, 5, ldots}$. Then the 30th is ${4, 5, 8, ldots}$. And so on. None of them have to be your infinite set, all of them can be different from your infinite set early enough to allow your set to be the result of the diagonalization. But all of your set's prefixes are in our list of finite subsets.






      share|cite|improve this answer


























        5












        5








        5






        Even though that specific infinite subset isn't in our list, we can still have all its finite prefixes in our list of finite subsets.



        For instance, say the 10th infinite subset in your list is ${4, ldots}$. Then the 20th is ${4, 5, ldots}$. Then the 30th is ${4, 5, 8, ldots}$. And so on. None of them have to be your infinite set, all of them can be different from your infinite set early enough to allow your set to be the result of the diagonalization. But all of your set's prefixes are in our list of finite subsets.






        share|cite|improve this answer














        Even though that specific infinite subset isn't in our list, we can still have all its finite prefixes in our list of finite subsets.



        For instance, say the 10th infinite subset in your list is ${4, ldots}$. Then the 20th is ${4, 5, ldots}$. Then the 30th is ${4, 5, 8, ldots}$. And so on. None of them have to be your infinite set, all of them can be different from your infinite set early enough to allow your set to be the result of the diagonalization. But all of your set's prefixes are in our list of finite subsets.







        share|cite|improve this answer














        share|cite|improve this answer



        share|cite|improve this answer








        edited 2 days ago

























        answered 2 days ago









        ArthurArthur

        111k7107189




        111k7107189






























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            Den här artikeln handlar om hundraårsperioden 1300–1399. För decenniet 1300–1309, se 1300-talet (decennium). .mw-parser-output .infobox{border:1px solid #aaa;background-color:#f9f9f9;color:black;margin:.5em 0 .5em 1em;padding:.2em;float:right;clear:right;width:22em;text-align:left;font-size:88%;line-height:1.6em}.mw-parser-output .infobox td,.mw-parser-output .infobox th{vertical-align:top;padding:0 .2em}.mw-parser-output .infobox caption{font-size:larger}.mw-parser-output .infobox.bordered{border-collapse:collapse}.mw-parser-output .infobox.bordered td,.mw-parser-output .infobox.bordered th{border:1px solid #aaa}.mw-parser-output .infobox.bordered .borderless td,.mw-parser-output .infobox.bordered .borderless th{border:0}.mw-parser-output .infobox-showbutton .mw-collapsible-text{color:inherit}.mw-parser-output .infobox.bordered .mergedtoprow td,.mw-parser-output .infobox.bordered .mergedtoprow th{border:0;border-top:1px solid #aaa;border-right:1px solid #aaa}.mw-parser-output ...
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            1300-talet

            Image
            Den här artikeln handlar om hundraårsperioden 1300–1399. För decenniet 1300–1309, se 1300-talet (decennium). .mw-parser-output .infobox{border:1px solid #aaa;background-color:#f9f9f9;color:black;margin:.5em 0 .5em 1em;padding:.2em;float:right;clear:right;width:22em;text-align:left;font-size:88%;line-height:1.6em}.mw-parser-output .infobox td,.mw-parser-output .infobox th{vertical-align:top;padding:0 .2em}.mw-parser-output .infobox caption{font-size:larger}.mw-parser-output .infobox.bordered{border-collapse:collapse}.mw-parser-output .infobox.bordered td,.mw-parser-output .infobox.bordered th{border:1px solid #aaa}.mw-parser-output .infobox.bordered .borderless td,.mw-parser-output .infobox.bordered .borderless th{border:0}.mw-parser-output .infobox-showbutton .mw-collapsible-text{color:inherit}.mw-parser-output .infobox.bordered .mergedtoprow td,.mw-parser-output .infobox.bordered .mergedtoprow th{border:0;border-top:1px solid #aaa;border-right:1px solid #aaa}.mw-parser-output ...
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            Display a custom attribute below product name in the front-end Magento 1.9.3.8

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            0 I need to display a custom attribute bellow the product name and I don't know how can I call this attribute. I am editing the file /app/design/frontend/templatemela/MAG100219_1/template/catalog/product/view.phtml But how can I call this attribute in php? I tried calling a string echo with the name I put in the attribute, but it didn't work. Code is as below: <div class="page-title product-title"> <h1><?php echo $_helper->productAttribute($_product, $_product->getName(), 'name') ?></h1> </div> <div class="codigoinmetro"> <h2><?php echo $_helper->productAttribute($_product, $_product->getName(), 'registroinmetro') ?></h2> </div> php attrib...
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