Op-Amp gain calculation












1














I'm trying to find R4 that will make:



$$frac{V_{out}}{V_{in}}=-120$$



The operational amplifier is ideal.



My attempt: In the '-' input there is a virtual ground, so the equivalent resistor above is $$(R2||R3) + R4$$



Using the formula for inverter amplifier:



$$ G = -frac{(R2||R3) + R4}{R1}$$



The answer is approximately $$R4=120MOmega$$



I know from a simulation that the answer is around $$24kOmega$$
Where is my mistake?





schematic





simulate this circuit – Schematic created using CircuitLab










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  • are you positively sure about the value of R1?
    – Marcus Müller
    yesterday










  • I do. Here is a screenshot of the simulation: link
    – bp7070
    yesterday












  • That simulator isn't very good. It's allowing 120 V out of an op-amp. Your maths appears correct.
    – Transistor
    yesterday










  • Edit: I fixed the simulation the, op-amp voltage is 15V - -15V Link and same result with 24kOhm
    – bp7070
    yesterday












  • @bp7070 by using a smaller input voltage. You need to assume a lot of things to be more ideal than they typically can be. For example, tolerances of the resistors become pretty interesting, considering the scale of R3 compared to the rest.
    – Marcus Müller
    yesterday
















1














I'm trying to find R4 that will make:



$$frac{V_{out}}{V_{in}}=-120$$



The operational amplifier is ideal.



My attempt: In the '-' input there is a virtual ground, so the equivalent resistor above is $$(R2||R3) + R4$$



Using the formula for inverter amplifier:



$$ G = -frac{(R2||R3) + R4}{R1}$$



The answer is approximately $$R4=120MOmega$$



I know from a simulation that the answer is around $$24kOmega$$
Where is my mistake?





schematic





simulate this circuit – Schematic created using CircuitLab










share|improve this question







New contributor




bp7070 is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.




















  • are you positively sure about the value of R1?
    – Marcus Müller
    yesterday










  • I do. Here is a screenshot of the simulation: link
    – bp7070
    yesterday












  • That simulator isn't very good. It's allowing 120 V out of an op-amp. Your maths appears correct.
    – Transistor
    yesterday










  • Edit: I fixed the simulation the, op-amp voltage is 15V - -15V Link and same result with 24kOhm
    – bp7070
    yesterday












  • @bp7070 by using a smaller input voltage. You need to assume a lot of things to be more ideal than they typically can be. For example, tolerances of the resistors become pretty interesting, considering the scale of R3 compared to the rest.
    – Marcus Müller
    yesterday














1












1








1







I'm trying to find R4 that will make:



$$frac{V_{out}}{V_{in}}=-120$$



The operational amplifier is ideal.



My attempt: In the '-' input there is a virtual ground, so the equivalent resistor above is $$(R2||R3) + R4$$



Using the formula for inverter amplifier:



$$ G = -frac{(R2||R3) + R4}{R1}$$



The answer is approximately $$R4=120MOmega$$



I know from a simulation that the answer is around $$24kOmega$$
Where is my mistake?





schematic





simulate this circuit – Schematic created using CircuitLab










share|improve this question







New contributor




bp7070 is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.











I'm trying to find R4 that will make:



$$frac{V_{out}}{V_{in}}=-120$$



The operational amplifier is ideal.



My attempt: In the '-' input there is a virtual ground, so the equivalent resistor above is $$(R2||R3) + R4$$



Using the formula for inverter amplifier:



$$ G = -frac{(R2||R3) + R4}{R1}$$



The answer is approximately $$R4=120MOmega$$



I know from a simulation that the answer is around $$24kOmega$$
Where is my mistake?





schematic





simulate this circuit – Schematic created using CircuitLab







circuit-analysis analog operational-amplifier






share|improve this question







New contributor




bp7070 is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.











share|improve this question







New contributor




bp7070 is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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share|improve this question




share|improve this question






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asked yesterday









bp7070

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New contributor





bp7070 is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.






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Check out our Code of Conduct.












  • are you positively sure about the value of R1?
    – Marcus Müller
    yesterday










  • I do. Here is a screenshot of the simulation: link
    – bp7070
    yesterday












  • That simulator isn't very good. It's allowing 120 V out of an op-amp. Your maths appears correct.
    – Transistor
    yesterday










  • Edit: I fixed the simulation the, op-amp voltage is 15V - -15V Link and same result with 24kOhm
    – bp7070
    yesterday












  • @bp7070 by using a smaller input voltage. You need to assume a lot of things to be more ideal than they typically can be. For example, tolerances of the resistors become pretty interesting, considering the scale of R3 compared to the rest.
    – Marcus Müller
    yesterday


















  • are you positively sure about the value of R1?
    – Marcus Müller
    yesterday










  • I do. Here is a screenshot of the simulation: link
    – bp7070
    yesterday












  • That simulator isn't very good. It's allowing 120 V out of an op-amp. Your maths appears correct.
    – Transistor
    yesterday










  • Edit: I fixed the simulation the, op-amp voltage is 15V - -15V Link and same result with 24kOhm
    – bp7070
    yesterday












  • @bp7070 by using a smaller input voltage. You need to assume a lot of things to be more ideal than they typically can be. For example, tolerances of the resistors become pretty interesting, considering the scale of R3 compared to the rest.
    – Marcus Müller
    yesterday
















are you positively sure about the value of R1?
– Marcus Müller
yesterday




are you positively sure about the value of R1?
– Marcus Müller
yesterday












I do. Here is a screenshot of the simulation: link
– bp7070
yesterday






I do. Here is a screenshot of the simulation: link
– bp7070
yesterday














That simulator isn't very good. It's allowing 120 V out of an op-amp. Your maths appears correct.
– Transistor
yesterday




That simulator isn't very good. It's allowing 120 V out of an op-amp. Your maths appears correct.
– Transistor
yesterday












Edit: I fixed the simulation the, op-amp voltage is 15V - -15V Link and same result with 24kOhm
– bp7070
yesterday






Edit: I fixed the simulation the, op-amp voltage is 15V - -15V Link and same result with 24kOhm
– bp7070
yesterday














@bp7070 by using a smaller input voltage. You need to assume a lot of things to be more ideal than they typically can be. For example, tolerances of the resistors become pretty interesting, considering the scale of R3 compared to the rest.
– Marcus Müller
yesterday




@bp7070 by using a smaller input voltage. You need to assume a lot of things to be more ideal than they typically can be. For example, tolerances of the resistors become pretty interesting, considering the scale of R3 compared to the rest.
– Marcus Müller
yesterday










4 Answers
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oldest

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0














Ok, time for idealized opamp rules.





  1. No current into opamp inputs




So, all current that flows through R1 also has to flow through R2.




(derivative rule) An opamp in negative feedback will coerce its inputs to take 0V difference.




That means V⁻ will be 0V (GND potential).



From that follows that the right hand side of R2 (where the other resistors attach) is at - (Vin/2), since R1 = 2 R2 (and the same current flows through both).



Since the voltage across R3 is $V_text{node}=-frac12 V_text{in}$, the current through R3 is



$$I_3 = frac{-frac12 V_text{in}}{mathrm R3}text,$$



which leaves us with



begin{align}
I_4 &= I_text{in} - I_3\
&= frac{V_text{in}}{mathrm R1} - frac{-frac12 V_text{in}}{mathrm R3}\
&=V_text{in}left(frac1{mathrm R1}+frac1{2mathrm R3}right)
end{align}

to flow through R4.



That yields an output voltage of



begin{align}
V_text{out} &= V_text{node} + I_4cdot mathrm R_4\
&=V_text{node} +V_text{in}left(frac1{mathrm R1}+frac1{2mathrm R3}right)cdot mathrm R_4\
&= -frac12 V_text{in} +V_text{in}left(frac1{mathrm R1}+frac1{2mathrm R3}right)cdot mathrm R_4\
&= V_text{in}left(frac{mathrm R4}{mathrm R1}+frac{mathrm R4}{2mathrm R3} - frac12right)text.
end{align}



The gain is hence



begin{align}
frac{V_text{out}}{V_text{in}} &= frac{mathrm R4}{mathrm R1}+frac{mathrm R4}{2mathrm R3} - frac12 \
&overset != -120\
-119.5 &= mathrm R4left(frac{1}{mathrm R1}+frac{1}{2mathrm R3}right)
end{align}



I must admit I can't find a non-negative solution for R4, so I must've gone wrong somewhere.






share|improve this answer























  • Thanks for the explenation, as you said the voltage at the node between R3 and R4 is $$-frac{V_{in}}{2}$$. Using voltage devider: $$-frac{V_{in}}{2}=V_{out}frac{100}{R4+100}$$, while $$frac{V_{out}}{V_{in}}=-120$$ gives the answer $$R4=23.9kOmega$$
    – bp7070
    yesterday












  • hm, can't do the voltage divider here, since R3 isn't unloaded and the current might also go into R2
    – Marcus Müller
    yesterday



















2














Here is an alternative solution:



Applying the star-triangle-transformation we get thee other resistors.



However, two of them play no role for the closed-loop gain because they are located at the output to ground (pure load) resp. between the inverting input and ground (no influence on closed loop gain).
Hence, there is only one resistor RF left between output and inverting input (one single feedback resistor).



Using the known resistor values it is no problem to find the value of this feedback resistor RF which is a function of the unknown resistor R4.



My result: R4=23.995k-0.09998k=23.895kohms.






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  • Guten-tag LvW, you have been faster than me for this one : )
    – Verbal Kint
    yesterday










  • As always: I do my very best....however, primarily regarding the content of a answer and not the speed....
    – LvW
    yesterday






  • 1




    Good comment, quality versus speed: I agree! Why are you now flagged as a new contributor?
    – Verbal Kint
    yesterday










  • I have changed the PC machine - and suddenly they have treated me as a new member. Don`t know why....Up to now I have used Windoes-XP and now I am with 10...I had a lot of problems, but now it seems to be OK.
    – LvW
    yesterday





















1














One option to determine the gain of this circuit is to use superposition and determine the voltage at the inverting pin which should be 0 V with an idealized op-amp. First, set $V_{out}$ to 0 V and determine $V_{-}$:



enter image description here



$V_{(2a)}=frac{R_4||R_3+R_2}{R_4||R_3+R_2+R_1}V_{in}$



Then, set $V_{in}$ to 0 V and determine again the voltage at $V_{-}$:



enter image description here



Doing the simple maths ok leads to;



$V_{(2b)}=V_{out}frac{R_3}{R_3+R_4}frac{R_1}{R_1+R_2+R_3||R_4}$



Then you say that $V_{-}=V_{(2a)}+V_{(2b)}=0$ and you solve for $V_{out}$ and factor the result. You should find:



$G=-frac{R_2(R_3+R_4)+R_3R_4}{R_1R_3}$



and the value of $R_4$ to have -120 V as an output of this op-amp is given by



$R_4=-frac{R_2R_3-120R_1R_3}{R_2+R_3}=23.895;kOmega$



The below SPICE simulation confirm the value with a perfect op-amp:



enter image description here



Another option would have consisted of using the EET or extra-element theorem which is part of the FACTs but using superposition is already part of the FACTs toolbox.






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    0














    Given the value of R2 (500 kohm) it will barely be loading the 100 ohm resistor (R3) and so, to obtain a gain of -120, a close approximation (given that R4 will need to be orders of magnitude greater than R3) is to choose a value for R4 that is 120 times R3. But, noting that R2 and R1 have a ratio of 0.5, the real value for R4 is close to 240 times that of R1 i.e. 24 kohm.




    Where is my mistake?




    I don't recognize your approach.



    You could do it more thoroughly by estimating the equivalent Thevenin source voltage and impedance produced by the op-amp output, R4 and R3 of course. Then recognize that the source impedance is in series with R2.






    share|improve this answer























    • Thanks, why did you conclude that the ratio of R1 and R2 doubles the needed value of R4?
      – bp7070
      yesterday










    • Because if R1 and R2 were equal (at say 1 Mohm), the attenuation brought about by R4 and R3 would only need to be 120:1 to obtain an overall gain of -120.
      – Andy aka
      yesterday













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    4 Answers
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    active

    oldest

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    4 Answers
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    0














    Ok, time for idealized opamp rules.





    1. No current into opamp inputs




    So, all current that flows through R1 also has to flow through R2.




    (derivative rule) An opamp in negative feedback will coerce its inputs to take 0V difference.




    That means V⁻ will be 0V (GND potential).



    From that follows that the right hand side of R2 (where the other resistors attach) is at - (Vin/2), since R1 = 2 R2 (and the same current flows through both).



    Since the voltage across R3 is $V_text{node}=-frac12 V_text{in}$, the current through R3 is



    $$I_3 = frac{-frac12 V_text{in}}{mathrm R3}text,$$



    which leaves us with



    begin{align}
    I_4 &= I_text{in} - I_3\
    &= frac{V_text{in}}{mathrm R1} - frac{-frac12 V_text{in}}{mathrm R3}\
    &=V_text{in}left(frac1{mathrm R1}+frac1{2mathrm R3}right)
    end{align}

    to flow through R4.



    That yields an output voltage of



    begin{align}
    V_text{out} &= V_text{node} + I_4cdot mathrm R_4\
    &=V_text{node} +V_text{in}left(frac1{mathrm R1}+frac1{2mathrm R3}right)cdot mathrm R_4\
    &= -frac12 V_text{in} +V_text{in}left(frac1{mathrm R1}+frac1{2mathrm R3}right)cdot mathrm R_4\
    &= V_text{in}left(frac{mathrm R4}{mathrm R1}+frac{mathrm R4}{2mathrm R3} - frac12right)text.
    end{align}



    The gain is hence



    begin{align}
    frac{V_text{out}}{V_text{in}} &= frac{mathrm R4}{mathrm R1}+frac{mathrm R4}{2mathrm R3} - frac12 \
    &overset != -120\
    -119.5 &= mathrm R4left(frac{1}{mathrm R1}+frac{1}{2mathrm R3}right)
    end{align}



    I must admit I can't find a non-negative solution for R4, so I must've gone wrong somewhere.






    share|improve this answer























    • Thanks for the explenation, as you said the voltage at the node between R3 and R4 is $$-frac{V_{in}}{2}$$. Using voltage devider: $$-frac{V_{in}}{2}=V_{out}frac{100}{R4+100}$$, while $$frac{V_{out}}{V_{in}}=-120$$ gives the answer $$R4=23.9kOmega$$
      – bp7070
      yesterday












    • hm, can't do the voltage divider here, since R3 isn't unloaded and the current might also go into R2
      – Marcus Müller
      yesterday
















    0














    Ok, time for idealized opamp rules.





    1. No current into opamp inputs




    So, all current that flows through R1 also has to flow through R2.




    (derivative rule) An opamp in negative feedback will coerce its inputs to take 0V difference.




    That means V⁻ will be 0V (GND potential).



    From that follows that the right hand side of R2 (where the other resistors attach) is at - (Vin/2), since R1 = 2 R2 (and the same current flows through both).



    Since the voltage across R3 is $V_text{node}=-frac12 V_text{in}$, the current through R3 is



    $$I_3 = frac{-frac12 V_text{in}}{mathrm R3}text,$$



    which leaves us with



    begin{align}
    I_4 &= I_text{in} - I_3\
    &= frac{V_text{in}}{mathrm R1} - frac{-frac12 V_text{in}}{mathrm R3}\
    &=V_text{in}left(frac1{mathrm R1}+frac1{2mathrm R3}right)
    end{align}

    to flow through R4.



    That yields an output voltage of



    begin{align}
    V_text{out} &= V_text{node} + I_4cdot mathrm R_4\
    &=V_text{node} +V_text{in}left(frac1{mathrm R1}+frac1{2mathrm R3}right)cdot mathrm R_4\
    &= -frac12 V_text{in} +V_text{in}left(frac1{mathrm R1}+frac1{2mathrm R3}right)cdot mathrm R_4\
    &= V_text{in}left(frac{mathrm R4}{mathrm R1}+frac{mathrm R4}{2mathrm R3} - frac12right)text.
    end{align}



    The gain is hence



    begin{align}
    frac{V_text{out}}{V_text{in}} &= frac{mathrm R4}{mathrm R1}+frac{mathrm R4}{2mathrm R3} - frac12 \
    &overset != -120\
    -119.5 &= mathrm R4left(frac{1}{mathrm R1}+frac{1}{2mathrm R3}right)
    end{align}



    I must admit I can't find a non-negative solution for R4, so I must've gone wrong somewhere.






    share|improve this answer























    • Thanks for the explenation, as you said the voltage at the node between R3 and R4 is $$-frac{V_{in}}{2}$$. Using voltage devider: $$-frac{V_{in}}{2}=V_{out}frac{100}{R4+100}$$, while $$frac{V_{out}}{V_{in}}=-120$$ gives the answer $$R4=23.9kOmega$$
      – bp7070
      yesterday












    • hm, can't do the voltage divider here, since R3 isn't unloaded and the current might also go into R2
      – Marcus Müller
      yesterday














    0












    0








    0






    Ok, time for idealized opamp rules.





    1. No current into opamp inputs




    So, all current that flows through R1 also has to flow through R2.




    (derivative rule) An opamp in negative feedback will coerce its inputs to take 0V difference.




    That means V⁻ will be 0V (GND potential).



    From that follows that the right hand side of R2 (where the other resistors attach) is at - (Vin/2), since R1 = 2 R2 (and the same current flows through both).



    Since the voltage across R3 is $V_text{node}=-frac12 V_text{in}$, the current through R3 is



    $$I_3 = frac{-frac12 V_text{in}}{mathrm R3}text,$$



    which leaves us with



    begin{align}
    I_4 &= I_text{in} - I_3\
    &= frac{V_text{in}}{mathrm R1} - frac{-frac12 V_text{in}}{mathrm R3}\
    &=V_text{in}left(frac1{mathrm R1}+frac1{2mathrm R3}right)
    end{align}

    to flow through R4.



    That yields an output voltage of



    begin{align}
    V_text{out} &= V_text{node} + I_4cdot mathrm R_4\
    &=V_text{node} +V_text{in}left(frac1{mathrm R1}+frac1{2mathrm R3}right)cdot mathrm R_4\
    &= -frac12 V_text{in} +V_text{in}left(frac1{mathrm R1}+frac1{2mathrm R3}right)cdot mathrm R_4\
    &= V_text{in}left(frac{mathrm R4}{mathrm R1}+frac{mathrm R4}{2mathrm R3} - frac12right)text.
    end{align}



    The gain is hence



    begin{align}
    frac{V_text{out}}{V_text{in}} &= frac{mathrm R4}{mathrm R1}+frac{mathrm R4}{2mathrm R3} - frac12 \
    &overset != -120\
    -119.5 &= mathrm R4left(frac{1}{mathrm R1}+frac{1}{2mathrm R3}right)
    end{align}



    I must admit I can't find a non-negative solution for R4, so I must've gone wrong somewhere.






    share|improve this answer














    Ok, time for idealized opamp rules.





    1. No current into opamp inputs




    So, all current that flows through R1 also has to flow through R2.




    (derivative rule) An opamp in negative feedback will coerce its inputs to take 0V difference.




    That means V⁻ will be 0V (GND potential).



    From that follows that the right hand side of R2 (where the other resistors attach) is at - (Vin/2), since R1 = 2 R2 (and the same current flows through both).



    Since the voltage across R3 is $V_text{node}=-frac12 V_text{in}$, the current through R3 is



    $$I_3 = frac{-frac12 V_text{in}}{mathrm R3}text,$$



    which leaves us with



    begin{align}
    I_4 &= I_text{in} - I_3\
    &= frac{V_text{in}}{mathrm R1} - frac{-frac12 V_text{in}}{mathrm R3}\
    &=V_text{in}left(frac1{mathrm R1}+frac1{2mathrm R3}right)
    end{align}

    to flow through R4.



    That yields an output voltage of



    begin{align}
    V_text{out} &= V_text{node} + I_4cdot mathrm R_4\
    &=V_text{node} +V_text{in}left(frac1{mathrm R1}+frac1{2mathrm R3}right)cdot mathrm R_4\
    &= -frac12 V_text{in} +V_text{in}left(frac1{mathrm R1}+frac1{2mathrm R3}right)cdot mathrm R_4\
    &= V_text{in}left(frac{mathrm R4}{mathrm R1}+frac{mathrm R4}{2mathrm R3} - frac12right)text.
    end{align}



    The gain is hence



    begin{align}
    frac{V_text{out}}{V_text{in}} &= frac{mathrm R4}{mathrm R1}+frac{mathrm R4}{2mathrm R3} - frac12 \
    &overset != -120\
    -119.5 &= mathrm R4left(frac{1}{mathrm R1}+frac{1}{2mathrm R3}right)
    end{align}



    I must admit I can't find a non-negative solution for R4, so I must've gone wrong somewhere.







    share|improve this answer














    share|improve this answer



    share|improve this answer








    edited yesterday

























    answered yesterday









    Marcus Müller

    32k35794




    32k35794












    • Thanks for the explenation, as you said the voltage at the node between R3 and R4 is $$-frac{V_{in}}{2}$$. Using voltage devider: $$-frac{V_{in}}{2}=V_{out}frac{100}{R4+100}$$, while $$frac{V_{out}}{V_{in}}=-120$$ gives the answer $$R4=23.9kOmega$$
      – bp7070
      yesterday












    • hm, can't do the voltage divider here, since R3 isn't unloaded and the current might also go into R2
      – Marcus Müller
      yesterday


















    • Thanks for the explenation, as you said the voltage at the node between R3 and R4 is $$-frac{V_{in}}{2}$$. Using voltage devider: $$-frac{V_{in}}{2}=V_{out}frac{100}{R4+100}$$, while $$frac{V_{out}}{V_{in}}=-120$$ gives the answer $$R4=23.9kOmega$$
      – bp7070
      yesterday












    • hm, can't do the voltage divider here, since R3 isn't unloaded and the current might also go into R2
      – Marcus Müller
      yesterday
















    Thanks for the explenation, as you said the voltage at the node between R3 and R4 is $$-frac{V_{in}}{2}$$. Using voltage devider: $$-frac{V_{in}}{2}=V_{out}frac{100}{R4+100}$$, while $$frac{V_{out}}{V_{in}}=-120$$ gives the answer $$R4=23.9kOmega$$
    – bp7070
    yesterday






    Thanks for the explenation, as you said the voltage at the node between R3 and R4 is $$-frac{V_{in}}{2}$$. Using voltage devider: $$-frac{V_{in}}{2}=V_{out}frac{100}{R4+100}$$, while $$frac{V_{out}}{V_{in}}=-120$$ gives the answer $$R4=23.9kOmega$$
    – bp7070
    yesterday














    hm, can't do the voltage divider here, since R3 isn't unloaded and the current might also go into R2
    – Marcus Müller
    yesterday




    hm, can't do the voltage divider here, since R3 isn't unloaded and the current might also go into R2
    – Marcus Müller
    yesterday













    2














    Here is an alternative solution:



    Applying the star-triangle-transformation we get thee other resistors.



    However, two of them play no role for the closed-loop gain because they are located at the output to ground (pure load) resp. between the inverting input and ground (no influence on closed loop gain).
    Hence, there is only one resistor RF left between output and inverting input (one single feedback resistor).



    Using the known resistor values it is no problem to find the value of this feedback resistor RF which is a function of the unknown resistor R4.



    My result: R4=23.995k-0.09998k=23.895kohms.






    share|improve this answer










    New contributor




    LvW is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
    Check out our Code of Conduct.


















    • Guten-tag LvW, you have been faster than me for this one : )
      – Verbal Kint
      yesterday










    • As always: I do my very best....however, primarily regarding the content of a answer and not the speed....
      – LvW
      yesterday






    • 1




      Good comment, quality versus speed: I agree! Why are you now flagged as a new contributor?
      – Verbal Kint
      yesterday










    • I have changed the PC machine - and suddenly they have treated me as a new member. Don`t know why....Up to now I have used Windoes-XP and now I am with 10...I had a lot of problems, but now it seems to be OK.
      – LvW
      yesterday


















    2














    Here is an alternative solution:



    Applying the star-triangle-transformation we get thee other resistors.



    However, two of them play no role for the closed-loop gain because they are located at the output to ground (pure load) resp. between the inverting input and ground (no influence on closed loop gain).
    Hence, there is only one resistor RF left between output and inverting input (one single feedback resistor).



    Using the known resistor values it is no problem to find the value of this feedback resistor RF which is a function of the unknown resistor R4.



    My result: R4=23.995k-0.09998k=23.895kohms.






    share|improve this answer










    New contributor




    LvW is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
    Check out our Code of Conduct.


















    • Guten-tag LvW, you have been faster than me for this one : )
      – Verbal Kint
      yesterday










    • As always: I do my very best....however, primarily regarding the content of a answer and not the speed....
      – LvW
      yesterday






    • 1




      Good comment, quality versus speed: I agree! Why are you now flagged as a new contributor?
      – Verbal Kint
      yesterday










    • I have changed the PC machine - and suddenly they have treated me as a new member. Don`t know why....Up to now I have used Windoes-XP and now I am with 10...I had a lot of problems, but now it seems to be OK.
      – LvW
      yesterday
















    2












    2








    2






    Here is an alternative solution:



    Applying the star-triangle-transformation we get thee other resistors.



    However, two of them play no role for the closed-loop gain because they are located at the output to ground (pure load) resp. between the inverting input and ground (no influence on closed loop gain).
    Hence, there is only one resistor RF left between output and inverting input (one single feedback resistor).



    Using the known resistor values it is no problem to find the value of this feedback resistor RF which is a function of the unknown resistor R4.



    My result: R4=23.995k-0.09998k=23.895kohms.






    share|improve this answer










    New contributor




    LvW is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
    Check out our Code of Conduct.









    Here is an alternative solution:



    Applying the star-triangle-transformation we get thee other resistors.



    However, two of them play no role for the closed-loop gain because they are located at the output to ground (pure load) resp. between the inverting input and ground (no influence on closed loop gain).
    Hence, there is only one resistor RF left between output and inverting input (one single feedback resistor).



    Using the known resistor values it is no problem to find the value of this feedback resistor RF which is a function of the unknown resistor R4.



    My result: R4=23.995k-0.09998k=23.895kohms.







    share|improve this answer










    New contributor




    LvW is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
    Check out our Code of Conduct.









    share|improve this answer



    share|improve this answer








    edited yesterday





















    New contributor




    LvW is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
    Check out our Code of Conduct.









    answered yesterday









    LvW

    512




    512




    New contributor




    LvW is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
    Check out our Code of Conduct.





    New contributor





    LvW is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
    Check out our Code of Conduct.






    LvW is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
    Check out our Code of Conduct.












    • Guten-tag LvW, you have been faster than me for this one : )
      – Verbal Kint
      yesterday










    • As always: I do my very best....however, primarily regarding the content of a answer and not the speed....
      – LvW
      yesterday






    • 1




      Good comment, quality versus speed: I agree! Why are you now flagged as a new contributor?
      – Verbal Kint
      yesterday










    • I have changed the PC machine - and suddenly they have treated me as a new member. Don`t know why....Up to now I have used Windoes-XP and now I am with 10...I had a lot of problems, but now it seems to be OK.
      – LvW
      yesterday




















    • Guten-tag LvW, you have been faster than me for this one : )
      – Verbal Kint
      yesterday










    • As always: I do my very best....however, primarily regarding the content of a answer and not the speed....
      – LvW
      yesterday






    • 1




      Good comment, quality versus speed: I agree! Why are you now flagged as a new contributor?
      – Verbal Kint
      yesterday










    • I have changed the PC machine - and suddenly they have treated me as a new member. Don`t know why....Up to now I have used Windoes-XP and now I am with 10...I had a lot of problems, but now it seems to be OK.
      – LvW
      yesterday


















    Guten-tag LvW, you have been faster than me for this one : )
    – Verbal Kint
    yesterday




    Guten-tag LvW, you have been faster than me for this one : )
    – Verbal Kint
    yesterday












    As always: I do my very best....however, primarily regarding the content of a answer and not the speed....
    – LvW
    yesterday




    As always: I do my very best....however, primarily regarding the content of a answer and not the speed....
    – LvW
    yesterday




    1




    1




    Good comment, quality versus speed: I agree! Why are you now flagged as a new contributor?
    – Verbal Kint
    yesterday




    Good comment, quality versus speed: I agree! Why are you now flagged as a new contributor?
    – Verbal Kint
    yesterday












    I have changed the PC machine - and suddenly they have treated me as a new member. Don`t know why....Up to now I have used Windoes-XP and now I am with 10...I had a lot of problems, but now it seems to be OK.
    – LvW
    yesterday






    I have changed the PC machine - and suddenly they have treated me as a new member. Don`t know why....Up to now I have used Windoes-XP and now I am with 10...I had a lot of problems, but now it seems to be OK.
    – LvW
    yesterday













    1














    One option to determine the gain of this circuit is to use superposition and determine the voltage at the inverting pin which should be 0 V with an idealized op-amp. First, set $V_{out}$ to 0 V and determine $V_{-}$:



    enter image description here



    $V_{(2a)}=frac{R_4||R_3+R_2}{R_4||R_3+R_2+R_1}V_{in}$



    Then, set $V_{in}$ to 0 V and determine again the voltage at $V_{-}$:



    enter image description here



    Doing the simple maths ok leads to;



    $V_{(2b)}=V_{out}frac{R_3}{R_3+R_4}frac{R_1}{R_1+R_2+R_3||R_4}$



    Then you say that $V_{-}=V_{(2a)}+V_{(2b)}=0$ and you solve for $V_{out}$ and factor the result. You should find:



    $G=-frac{R_2(R_3+R_4)+R_3R_4}{R_1R_3}$



    and the value of $R_4$ to have -120 V as an output of this op-amp is given by



    $R_4=-frac{R_2R_3-120R_1R_3}{R_2+R_3}=23.895;kOmega$



    The below SPICE simulation confirm the value with a perfect op-amp:



    enter image description here



    Another option would have consisted of using the EET or extra-element theorem which is part of the FACTs but using superposition is already part of the FACTs toolbox.






    share|improve this answer


























      1














      One option to determine the gain of this circuit is to use superposition and determine the voltage at the inverting pin which should be 0 V with an idealized op-amp. First, set $V_{out}$ to 0 V and determine $V_{-}$:



      enter image description here



      $V_{(2a)}=frac{R_4||R_3+R_2}{R_4||R_3+R_2+R_1}V_{in}$



      Then, set $V_{in}$ to 0 V and determine again the voltage at $V_{-}$:



      enter image description here



      Doing the simple maths ok leads to;



      $V_{(2b)}=V_{out}frac{R_3}{R_3+R_4}frac{R_1}{R_1+R_2+R_3||R_4}$



      Then you say that $V_{-}=V_{(2a)}+V_{(2b)}=0$ and you solve for $V_{out}$ and factor the result. You should find:



      $G=-frac{R_2(R_3+R_4)+R_3R_4}{R_1R_3}$



      and the value of $R_4$ to have -120 V as an output of this op-amp is given by



      $R_4=-frac{R_2R_3-120R_1R_3}{R_2+R_3}=23.895;kOmega$



      The below SPICE simulation confirm the value with a perfect op-amp:



      enter image description here



      Another option would have consisted of using the EET or extra-element theorem which is part of the FACTs but using superposition is already part of the FACTs toolbox.






      share|improve this answer
























        1












        1








        1






        One option to determine the gain of this circuit is to use superposition and determine the voltage at the inverting pin which should be 0 V with an idealized op-amp. First, set $V_{out}$ to 0 V and determine $V_{-}$:



        enter image description here



        $V_{(2a)}=frac{R_4||R_3+R_2}{R_4||R_3+R_2+R_1}V_{in}$



        Then, set $V_{in}$ to 0 V and determine again the voltage at $V_{-}$:



        enter image description here



        Doing the simple maths ok leads to;



        $V_{(2b)}=V_{out}frac{R_3}{R_3+R_4}frac{R_1}{R_1+R_2+R_3||R_4}$



        Then you say that $V_{-}=V_{(2a)}+V_{(2b)}=0$ and you solve for $V_{out}$ and factor the result. You should find:



        $G=-frac{R_2(R_3+R_4)+R_3R_4}{R_1R_3}$



        and the value of $R_4$ to have -120 V as an output of this op-amp is given by



        $R_4=-frac{R_2R_3-120R_1R_3}{R_2+R_3}=23.895;kOmega$



        The below SPICE simulation confirm the value with a perfect op-amp:



        enter image description here



        Another option would have consisted of using the EET or extra-element theorem which is part of the FACTs but using superposition is already part of the FACTs toolbox.






        share|improve this answer












        One option to determine the gain of this circuit is to use superposition and determine the voltage at the inverting pin which should be 0 V with an idealized op-amp. First, set $V_{out}$ to 0 V and determine $V_{-}$:



        enter image description here



        $V_{(2a)}=frac{R_4||R_3+R_2}{R_4||R_3+R_2+R_1}V_{in}$



        Then, set $V_{in}$ to 0 V and determine again the voltage at $V_{-}$:



        enter image description here



        Doing the simple maths ok leads to;



        $V_{(2b)}=V_{out}frac{R_3}{R_3+R_4}frac{R_1}{R_1+R_2+R_3||R_4}$



        Then you say that $V_{-}=V_{(2a)}+V_{(2b)}=0$ and you solve for $V_{out}$ and factor the result. You should find:



        $G=-frac{R_2(R_3+R_4)+R_3R_4}{R_1R_3}$



        and the value of $R_4$ to have -120 V as an output of this op-amp is given by



        $R_4=-frac{R_2R_3-120R_1R_3}{R_2+R_3}=23.895;kOmega$



        The below SPICE simulation confirm the value with a perfect op-amp:



        enter image description here



        Another option would have consisted of using the EET or extra-element theorem which is part of the FACTs but using superposition is already part of the FACTs toolbox.







        share|improve this answer












        share|improve this answer



        share|improve this answer










        answered yesterday









        Verbal Kint

        3,2291312




        3,2291312























            0














            Given the value of R2 (500 kohm) it will barely be loading the 100 ohm resistor (R3) and so, to obtain a gain of -120, a close approximation (given that R4 will need to be orders of magnitude greater than R3) is to choose a value for R4 that is 120 times R3. But, noting that R2 and R1 have a ratio of 0.5, the real value for R4 is close to 240 times that of R1 i.e. 24 kohm.




            Where is my mistake?




            I don't recognize your approach.



            You could do it more thoroughly by estimating the equivalent Thevenin source voltage and impedance produced by the op-amp output, R4 and R3 of course. Then recognize that the source impedance is in series with R2.






            share|improve this answer























            • Thanks, why did you conclude that the ratio of R1 and R2 doubles the needed value of R4?
              – bp7070
              yesterday










            • Because if R1 and R2 were equal (at say 1 Mohm), the attenuation brought about by R4 and R3 would only need to be 120:1 to obtain an overall gain of -120.
              – Andy aka
              yesterday


















            0














            Given the value of R2 (500 kohm) it will barely be loading the 100 ohm resistor (R3) and so, to obtain a gain of -120, a close approximation (given that R4 will need to be orders of magnitude greater than R3) is to choose a value for R4 that is 120 times R3. But, noting that R2 and R1 have a ratio of 0.5, the real value for R4 is close to 240 times that of R1 i.e. 24 kohm.




            Where is my mistake?




            I don't recognize your approach.



            You could do it more thoroughly by estimating the equivalent Thevenin source voltage and impedance produced by the op-amp output, R4 and R3 of course. Then recognize that the source impedance is in series with R2.






            share|improve this answer























            • Thanks, why did you conclude that the ratio of R1 and R2 doubles the needed value of R4?
              – bp7070
              yesterday










            • Because if R1 and R2 were equal (at say 1 Mohm), the attenuation brought about by R4 and R3 would only need to be 120:1 to obtain an overall gain of -120.
              – Andy aka
              yesterday
















            0












            0








            0






            Given the value of R2 (500 kohm) it will barely be loading the 100 ohm resistor (R3) and so, to obtain a gain of -120, a close approximation (given that R4 will need to be orders of magnitude greater than R3) is to choose a value for R4 that is 120 times R3. But, noting that R2 and R1 have a ratio of 0.5, the real value for R4 is close to 240 times that of R1 i.e. 24 kohm.




            Where is my mistake?




            I don't recognize your approach.



            You could do it more thoroughly by estimating the equivalent Thevenin source voltage and impedance produced by the op-amp output, R4 and R3 of course. Then recognize that the source impedance is in series with R2.






            share|improve this answer














            Given the value of R2 (500 kohm) it will barely be loading the 100 ohm resistor (R3) and so, to obtain a gain of -120, a close approximation (given that R4 will need to be orders of magnitude greater than R3) is to choose a value for R4 that is 120 times R3. But, noting that R2 and R1 have a ratio of 0.5, the real value for R4 is close to 240 times that of R1 i.e. 24 kohm.




            Where is my mistake?




            I don't recognize your approach.



            You could do it more thoroughly by estimating the equivalent Thevenin source voltage and impedance produced by the op-amp output, R4 and R3 of course. Then recognize that the source impedance is in series with R2.







            share|improve this answer














            share|improve this answer



            share|improve this answer








            edited yesterday

























            answered yesterday









            Andy aka

            239k10176409




            239k10176409












            • Thanks, why did you conclude that the ratio of R1 and R2 doubles the needed value of R4?
              – bp7070
              yesterday










            • Because if R1 and R2 were equal (at say 1 Mohm), the attenuation brought about by R4 and R3 would only need to be 120:1 to obtain an overall gain of -120.
              – Andy aka
              yesterday




















            • Thanks, why did you conclude that the ratio of R1 and R2 doubles the needed value of R4?
              – bp7070
              yesterday










            • Because if R1 and R2 were equal (at say 1 Mohm), the attenuation brought about by R4 and R3 would only need to be 120:1 to obtain an overall gain of -120.
              – Andy aka
              yesterday


















            Thanks, why did you conclude that the ratio of R1 and R2 doubles the needed value of R4?
            – bp7070
            yesterday




            Thanks, why did you conclude that the ratio of R1 and R2 doubles the needed value of R4?
            – bp7070
            yesterday












            Because if R1 and R2 were equal (at say 1 Mohm), the attenuation brought about by R4 and R3 would only need to be 120:1 to obtain an overall gain of -120.
            – Andy aka
            yesterday






            Because if R1 and R2 were equal (at say 1 Mohm), the attenuation brought about by R4 and R3 would only need to be 120:1 to obtain an overall gain of -120.
            – Andy aka
            yesterday












            bp7070 is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.










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