Quotient maps and open maps
I was doing Exercise A.36 in Lee's Introduction to smooth manifolds which states the following:
Let $q: X rightarrow Y$ be an open quotient map. Then $Y$ is Hausdorff if and only if $R = {(x_1, x_2) mid q(x_1) = q(x_2) }$ is closed in $X times X$. I know this has been asked before and my answer agreed with the top answer in this post: $X/{sim}$ is Hausdorff if and only if $sim$ is closed in $X times X$. However, I don't see where we use the fact that $q$ is actually a quotient map. It seems that the solution only uses that $q$ is open (so that $q times q$ is open), continuous and surjective. Can someone please clarify?
On a related note, another answer to the same post also states that the product of two open quotient maps is an open quotient map. Is this really true though? I know that in general, the product of two quotient maps is not a quotient map but the counterexamples do not involve maps that are also open.
general-topology quotient-spaces open-map
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show 2 more comments
I was doing Exercise A.36 in Lee's Introduction to smooth manifolds which states the following:
Let $q: X rightarrow Y$ be an open quotient map. Then $Y$ is Hausdorff if and only if $R = {(x_1, x_2) mid q(x_1) = q(x_2) }$ is closed in $X times X$. I know this has been asked before and my answer agreed with the top answer in this post: $X/{sim}$ is Hausdorff if and only if $sim$ is closed in $X times X$. However, I don't see where we use the fact that $q$ is actually a quotient map. It seems that the solution only uses that $q$ is open (so that $q times q$ is open), continuous and surjective. Can someone please clarify?
On a related note, another answer to the same post also states that the product of two open quotient maps is an open quotient map. Is this really true though? I know that in general, the product of two quotient maps is not a quotient map but the counterexamples do not involve maps that are also open.
general-topology quotient-spaces open-map
Nope, projection from $mathbb{R}^2$ to $mathbb{R}$ is open, continuous and surjective but by no means a quotient map.
– Thomas Bakx
Jan 3 at 20:38
Okay, so I guess a quotient map $f:Xto Y$ is defined as a map between topological spaces which is surjective, and $U$ is open in $Y$ if and only if $f^{-1}(U)$ is open in $X$. So, I guess you don't need $q$ to be a quotient map, but you do need continuity and surjectivity, and these things are guaranteed by $q$ being a quotient map.
– Ben W
Jan 3 at 20:46
Well, being a quotient map is not sufficient either. Quotient maps are not necessarily open and we do need openness.
– Thomas Bakx
Jan 3 at 20:49
Right, you need it to be open, continuous, and surjective. The last two conditions are guaranteed by $q$ being a quotient map, and the first condition is given by hypothesis.,
– Ben W
Jan 3 at 20:50
All that is clear, this is not answering my question.
– Thomas Bakx
2 days ago
|
show 2 more comments
I was doing Exercise A.36 in Lee's Introduction to smooth manifolds which states the following:
Let $q: X rightarrow Y$ be an open quotient map. Then $Y$ is Hausdorff if and only if $R = {(x_1, x_2) mid q(x_1) = q(x_2) }$ is closed in $X times X$. I know this has been asked before and my answer agreed with the top answer in this post: $X/{sim}$ is Hausdorff if and only if $sim$ is closed in $X times X$. However, I don't see where we use the fact that $q$ is actually a quotient map. It seems that the solution only uses that $q$ is open (so that $q times q$ is open), continuous and surjective. Can someone please clarify?
On a related note, another answer to the same post also states that the product of two open quotient maps is an open quotient map. Is this really true though? I know that in general, the product of two quotient maps is not a quotient map but the counterexamples do not involve maps that are also open.
general-topology quotient-spaces open-map
I was doing Exercise A.36 in Lee's Introduction to smooth manifolds which states the following:
Let $q: X rightarrow Y$ be an open quotient map. Then $Y$ is Hausdorff if and only if $R = {(x_1, x_2) mid q(x_1) = q(x_2) }$ is closed in $X times X$. I know this has been asked before and my answer agreed with the top answer in this post: $X/{sim}$ is Hausdorff if and only if $sim$ is closed in $X times X$. However, I don't see where we use the fact that $q$ is actually a quotient map. It seems that the solution only uses that $q$ is open (so that $q times q$ is open), continuous and surjective. Can someone please clarify?
On a related note, another answer to the same post also states that the product of two open quotient maps is an open quotient map. Is this really true though? I know that in general, the product of two quotient maps is not a quotient map but the counterexamples do not involve maps that are also open.
general-topology quotient-spaces open-map
general-topology quotient-spaces open-map
asked Jan 3 at 20:32
Thomas Bakx
3289
3289
Nope, projection from $mathbb{R}^2$ to $mathbb{R}$ is open, continuous and surjective but by no means a quotient map.
– Thomas Bakx
Jan 3 at 20:38
Okay, so I guess a quotient map $f:Xto Y$ is defined as a map between topological spaces which is surjective, and $U$ is open in $Y$ if and only if $f^{-1}(U)$ is open in $X$. So, I guess you don't need $q$ to be a quotient map, but you do need continuity and surjectivity, and these things are guaranteed by $q$ being a quotient map.
– Ben W
Jan 3 at 20:46
Well, being a quotient map is not sufficient either. Quotient maps are not necessarily open and we do need openness.
– Thomas Bakx
Jan 3 at 20:49
Right, you need it to be open, continuous, and surjective. The last two conditions are guaranteed by $q$ being a quotient map, and the first condition is given by hypothesis.,
– Ben W
Jan 3 at 20:50
All that is clear, this is not answering my question.
– Thomas Bakx
2 days ago
|
show 2 more comments
Nope, projection from $mathbb{R}^2$ to $mathbb{R}$ is open, continuous and surjective but by no means a quotient map.
– Thomas Bakx
Jan 3 at 20:38
Okay, so I guess a quotient map $f:Xto Y$ is defined as a map between topological spaces which is surjective, and $U$ is open in $Y$ if and only if $f^{-1}(U)$ is open in $X$. So, I guess you don't need $q$ to be a quotient map, but you do need continuity and surjectivity, and these things are guaranteed by $q$ being a quotient map.
– Ben W
Jan 3 at 20:46
Well, being a quotient map is not sufficient either. Quotient maps are not necessarily open and we do need openness.
– Thomas Bakx
Jan 3 at 20:49
Right, you need it to be open, continuous, and surjective. The last two conditions are guaranteed by $q$ being a quotient map, and the first condition is given by hypothesis.,
– Ben W
Jan 3 at 20:50
All that is clear, this is not answering my question.
– Thomas Bakx
2 days ago
Nope, projection from $mathbb{R}^2$ to $mathbb{R}$ is open, continuous and surjective but by no means a quotient map.
– Thomas Bakx
Jan 3 at 20:38
Nope, projection from $mathbb{R}^2$ to $mathbb{R}$ is open, continuous and surjective but by no means a quotient map.
– Thomas Bakx
Jan 3 at 20:38
Okay, so I guess a quotient map $f:Xto Y$ is defined as a map between topological spaces which is surjective, and $U$ is open in $Y$ if and only if $f^{-1}(U)$ is open in $X$. So, I guess you don't need $q$ to be a quotient map, but you do need continuity and surjectivity, and these things are guaranteed by $q$ being a quotient map.
– Ben W
Jan 3 at 20:46
Okay, so I guess a quotient map $f:Xto Y$ is defined as a map between topological spaces which is surjective, and $U$ is open in $Y$ if and only if $f^{-1}(U)$ is open in $X$. So, I guess you don't need $q$ to be a quotient map, but you do need continuity and surjectivity, and these things are guaranteed by $q$ being a quotient map.
– Ben W
Jan 3 at 20:46
Well, being a quotient map is not sufficient either. Quotient maps are not necessarily open and we do need openness.
– Thomas Bakx
Jan 3 at 20:49
Well, being a quotient map is not sufficient either. Quotient maps are not necessarily open and we do need openness.
– Thomas Bakx
Jan 3 at 20:49
Right, you need it to be open, continuous, and surjective. The last two conditions are guaranteed by $q$ being a quotient map, and the first condition is given by hypothesis.,
– Ben W
Jan 3 at 20:50
Right, you need it to be open, continuous, and surjective. The last two conditions are guaranteed by $q$ being a quotient map, and the first condition is given by hypothesis.,
– Ben W
Jan 3 at 20:50
All that is clear, this is not answering my question.
– Thomas Bakx
2 days ago
All that is clear, this is not answering my question.
– Thomas Bakx
2 days ago
|
show 2 more comments
1 Answer
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Let us agree that a map is a continuous function.
A quotient map $q : X to Y$ is a surjective map such that $V subset Y$ is open if and only $q^{-1}(V) subset X$ is open.
A quotient map is in general not an open map, but is is well-known that any open surjective map is a quotient map (this follows from $q(q^{-1}(V)) = V$).
The assumption "Let $q : X to Y$ be an open quotient map" is therefore the same as "Let $q : X to Y$ be an open map".
What is the relation to the post $X/{sim}$ is Hausdorff if and only if $sim$ is closed in $X times X$?
In this post we do not start with a map $q : X to Y$ between topological spaces, but with a space $X$ and an equivalence relation $sim$ on $X$ and then define $Y = X / sim$. The function
$$q : X to Y, q(x) = [x] ,$$
where $[x]$ denotes the equivalence class of $x$ with respect to $sim$, is by definition a surjection. $X$ is a topological space, but $Y$ is defined as a set which does not yet have a topology. In this situation the set $Y$ is by default endowed with the quotient topology (which is the finest topology on $Y$ making $q$ continuous).
Thus, the phrase "If the quotient map is open" tells us two facts:
(1) The set $Y$ is endowed with the quotient topology.
(2) $q$ is an open map.
For the proof we only need (2). But without specifying the topology on $Y$ it does not make sense to say that $q : X to Y$ is an open map, and that is the reason why we need the information that $q$ is the quotient map.
In your post we already have a topology on $Y$, and it is redundant to say that $q$ is an open quotient map.
Finally, the product of two open quotient maps is an open quotient map simply because the product of two open maps is an open map.
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Let us agree that a map is a continuous function.
A quotient map $q : X to Y$ is a surjective map such that $V subset Y$ is open if and only $q^{-1}(V) subset X$ is open.
A quotient map is in general not an open map, but is is well-known that any open surjective map is a quotient map (this follows from $q(q^{-1}(V)) = V$).
The assumption "Let $q : X to Y$ be an open quotient map" is therefore the same as "Let $q : X to Y$ be an open map".
What is the relation to the post $X/{sim}$ is Hausdorff if and only if $sim$ is closed in $X times X$?
In this post we do not start with a map $q : X to Y$ between topological spaces, but with a space $X$ and an equivalence relation $sim$ on $X$ and then define $Y = X / sim$. The function
$$q : X to Y, q(x) = [x] ,$$
where $[x]$ denotes the equivalence class of $x$ with respect to $sim$, is by definition a surjection. $X$ is a topological space, but $Y$ is defined as a set which does not yet have a topology. In this situation the set $Y$ is by default endowed with the quotient topology (which is the finest topology on $Y$ making $q$ continuous).
Thus, the phrase "If the quotient map is open" tells us two facts:
(1) The set $Y$ is endowed with the quotient topology.
(2) $q$ is an open map.
For the proof we only need (2). But without specifying the topology on $Y$ it does not make sense to say that $q : X to Y$ is an open map, and that is the reason why we need the information that $q$ is the quotient map.
In your post we already have a topology on $Y$, and it is redundant to say that $q$ is an open quotient map.
Finally, the product of two open quotient maps is an open quotient map simply because the product of two open maps is an open map.
add a comment |
Let us agree that a map is a continuous function.
A quotient map $q : X to Y$ is a surjective map such that $V subset Y$ is open if and only $q^{-1}(V) subset X$ is open.
A quotient map is in general not an open map, but is is well-known that any open surjective map is a quotient map (this follows from $q(q^{-1}(V)) = V$).
The assumption "Let $q : X to Y$ be an open quotient map" is therefore the same as "Let $q : X to Y$ be an open map".
What is the relation to the post $X/{sim}$ is Hausdorff if and only if $sim$ is closed in $X times X$?
In this post we do not start with a map $q : X to Y$ between topological spaces, but with a space $X$ and an equivalence relation $sim$ on $X$ and then define $Y = X / sim$. The function
$$q : X to Y, q(x) = [x] ,$$
where $[x]$ denotes the equivalence class of $x$ with respect to $sim$, is by definition a surjection. $X$ is a topological space, but $Y$ is defined as a set which does not yet have a topology. In this situation the set $Y$ is by default endowed with the quotient topology (which is the finest topology on $Y$ making $q$ continuous).
Thus, the phrase "If the quotient map is open" tells us two facts:
(1) The set $Y$ is endowed with the quotient topology.
(2) $q$ is an open map.
For the proof we only need (2). But without specifying the topology on $Y$ it does not make sense to say that $q : X to Y$ is an open map, and that is the reason why we need the information that $q$ is the quotient map.
In your post we already have a topology on $Y$, and it is redundant to say that $q$ is an open quotient map.
Finally, the product of two open quotient maps is an open quotient map simply because the product of two open maps is an open map.
add a comment |
Let us agree that a map is a continuous function.
A quotient map $q : X to Y$ is a surjective map such that $V subset Y$ is open if and only $q^{-1}(V) subset X$ is open.
A quotient map is in general not an open map, but is is well-known that any open surjective map is a quotient map (this follows from $q(q^{-1}(V)) = V$).
The assumption "Let $q : X to Y$ be an open quotient map" is therefore the same as "Let $q : X to Y$ be an open map".
What is the relation to the post $X/{sim}$ is Hausdorff if and only if $sim$ is closed in $X times X$?
In this post we do not start with a map $q : X to Y$ between topological spaces, but with a space $X$ and an equivalence relation $sim$ on $X$ and then define $Y = X / sim$. The function
$$q : X to Y, q(x) = [x] ,$$
where $[x]$ denotes the equivalence class of $x$ with respect to $sim$, is by definition a surjection. $X$ is a topological space, but $Y$ is defined as a set which does not yet have a topology. In this situation the set $Y$ is by default endowed with the quotient topology (which is the finest topology on $Y$ making $q$ continuous).
Thus, the phrase "If the quotient map is open" tells us two facts:
(1) The set $Y$ is endowed with the quotient topology.
(2) $q$ is an open map.
For the proof we only need (2). But without specifying the topology on $Y$ it does not make sense to say that $q : X to Y$ is an open map, and that is the reason why we need the information that $q$ is the quotient map.
In your post we already have a topology on $Y$, and it is redundant to say that $q$ is an open quotient map.
Finally, the product of two open quotient maps is an open quotient map simply because the product of two open maps is an open map.
Let us agree that a map is a continuous function.
A quotient map $q : X to Y$ is a surjective map such that $V subset Y$ is open if and only $q^{-1}(V) subset X$ is open.
A quotient map is in general not an open map, but is is well-known that any open surjective map is a quotient map (this follows from $q(q^{-1}(V)) = V$).
The assumption "Let $q : X to Y$ be an open quotient map" is therefore the same as "Let $q : X to Y$ be an open map".
What is the relation to the post $X/{sim}$ is Hausdorff if and only if $sim$ is closed in $X times X$?
In this post we do not start with a map $q : X to Y$ between topological spaces, but with a space $X$ and an equivalence relation $sim$ on $X$ and then define $Y = X / sim$. The function
$$q : X to Y, q(x) = [x] ,$$
where $[x]$ denotes the equivalence class of $x$ with respect to $sim$, is by definition a surjection. $X$ is a topological space, but $Y$ is defined as a set which does not yet have a topology. In this situation the set $Y$ is by default endowed with the quotient topology (which is the finest topology on $Y$ making $q$ continuous).
Thus, the phrase "If the quotient map is open" tells us two facts:
(1) The set $Y$ is endowed with the quotient topology.
(2) $q$ is an open map.
For the proof we only need (2). But without specifying the topology on $Y$ it does not make sense to say that $q : X to Y$ is an open map, and that is the reason why we need the information that $q$ is the quotient map.
In your post we already have a topology on $Y$, and it is redundant to say that $q$ is an open quotient map.
Finally, the product of two open quotient maps is an open quotient map simply because the product of two open maps is an open map.
edited 2 days ago
answered 2 days ago
Paul Frost
9,3762631
9,3762631
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Nope, projection from $mathbb{R}^2$ to $mathbb{R}$ is open, continuous and surjective but by no means a quotient map.
– Thomas Bakx
Jan 3 at 20:38
Okay, so I guess a quotient map $f:Xto Y$ is defined as a map between topological spaces which is surjective, and $U$ is open in $Y$ if and only if $f^{-1}(U)$ is open in $X$. So, I guess you don't need $q$ to be a quotient map, but you do need continuity and surjectivity, and these things are guaranteed by $q$ being a quotient map.
– Ben W
Jan 3 at 20:46
Well, being a quotient map is not sufficient either. Quotient maps are not necessarily open and we do need openness.
– Thomas Bakx
Jan 3 at 20:49
Right, you need it to be open, continuous, and surjective. The last two conditions are guaranteed by $q$ being a quotient map, and the first condition is given by hypothesis.,
– Ben W
Jan 3 at 20:50
All that is clear, this is not answering my question.
– Thomas Bakx
2 days ago