Can a bulette ignore the rule about ending a turn in occupied space after using deadly leap?












22














The bulette can use its deadly leap ability to jump onto its targets and possibly knock them prone if they fail their saving throw. But having done so it will be sharing the same space as them. The rules state you can't willingly end your turn in the same space as another creature but I can't see a good reason why a bulette would try to move away, assuming it still has movement left.










share|improve this question





























    22














    The bulette can use its deadly leap ability to jump onto its targets and possibly knock them prone if they fail their saving throw. But having done so it will be sharing the same space as them. The rules state you can't willingly end your turn in the same space as another creature but I can't see a good reason why a bulette would try to move away, assuming it still has movement left.










    share|improve this question



























      22












      22








      22







      The bulette can use its deadly leap ability to jump onto its targets and possibly knock them prone if they fail their saving throw. But having done so it will be sharing the same space as them. The rules state you can't willingly end your turn in the same space as another creature but I can't see a good reason why a bulette would try to move away, assuming it still has movement left.










      share|improve this question















      The bulette can use its deadly leap ability to jump onto its targets and possibly knock them prone if they fail their saving throw. But having done so it will be sharing the same space as them. The rules state you can't willingly end your turn in the same space as another creature but I can't see a good reason why a bulette would try to move away, assuming it still has movement left.







      dnd-5e monsters movement






      share|improve this question















      share|improve this question













      share|improve this question




      share|improve this question








      edited yesterday









      Angew

      2,20611027




      2,20611027










      asked yesterday









      Allan MillsAllan Mills

      69410




      69410






















          4 Answers
          4






          active

          oldest

          votes


















          29














          If the creature is prone, the bulette can occupy the space



          From the detailed description we find this specific ability overwriting the general case of movement into another creature's space:




          Deadly Leap

          If the bulette jumps at least 15 ft. as part of its Movement, it can then use this action to land on its feet in a space that contains one or more other creatures. Each of those creatures must succeed on a DC 16 Strength or Dexterity saving throw (target's choice) or be knocked prone and take 14 (3d6 + 4) bludgeoning damage plus 14 (3d6 + 4) slashing damage. On a successful save, the creature takes only half the damage, isn't knocked prone, and is pushed 5 ft. out of the bulette's space into an unoccupied space of the creature's choice. If no unoccupied space is within range, the creature instead falls prone in the bulette's space. (MM, p. 34)




          This looks like a specific case (bulette's special ability) overwriting the general case of the rule about space occupation. At the end of its turn, the bulette ends up occupying the creature's space(s). No limitation on now much movement is used prior to the Deadly Leap is made; so if the last 15' is all that is left, the bulette and its prone targets are in the same space at the end of the bulette's turn. The target area creatures are either prone (under the bulette) or knocked out of the way into an adjacent space (depends on save/no save, space/no space). That ruling holds to "Specific Over General" in a slightly different way that TJL's fine answer. Only proned creatures end up in the same space at the end of the bulette's turn.



          What was the bulette trying to do? Kill/harm the target, or knock it out of the way with a special ability that is mechanically like a spell: it requires a save for half damage, and another effect. This is similar to the Thunderwave spell's condition(knocked back) and damage as result of the spell, with half damage on save and no knockback).



          The bulette is not simply moving "into another creature's square" which is where the general rule comes from: movement. This result is due to a special ability (spell?) of the bulette.



          Specific Beats General




          This book contains rules, especially in parts 2 and 3, that govern how the game plays. That said, many racial traits, class features, spells, magic items, monster abilities, and other game elements break the general rules in some way, creating an exception to how the rest of the game works. Remember this: If a specific rule contradicts a general rule, the specific rule wins.

          (Basic Rules p. 5)




          I'd rule that the specific bulette rule wins over the general rule about "not in the same space" from the movement part of the rules.




          Whether a creature is a friend or an enemy, you can't willingly end your move in its space.

          (Basic Rules p. 74)




          Now what happens?



          If the creature has a reaction that allows movement, they can at that point vacate the space during the bulette's turn (character option). Or, they could try to stand up.



          At this point, your concern on the "no two things in the same place" is more of a problem during the turns of the creatures that were attacked; it is resolved before the end of each creature's turn.




          • Do they back up, stay within reach, and attack?

          • Do they back up further and risk an OA?

          • Does the character remain prone and in the same space (I'd recommend against) and make attacks (if any) at disadvantage?
            Each character / creature makes their own decision.


          At table experience



          I recently ran a battle where two bulette's attacked the merchant caravan the players are escorting/guarding, and this exact issue came up. The above is how I ruled.




          • One of the poor oxen was dismembered. Of course the party Barbarian, after the battle, quoted a LoTR movie line (Two Towers) and bellowed: "Meat's back on the menu, boys!"


          Is this a contradiction?



          No, it makes sense from a simulationist / verisimilitude perspective. D&D 5e is not a computer game: it is a TTRPG. There isn't a piece of code that will crash the game if two states "in this space" are both marked as true. The key is that the targets are prone, rather than upright, leaving the bulette astride them at the end of its turn due a special ability: Deadly Leap. Most creatures don't have that ability. The creatures in the prone state have the chance on their turn to deal with it.






          share|improve this answer























          • Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.
            – doppelgreener
            yesterday



















          13














          One of the principle design tenets of D&D5E is the concept of "exception based design". Otherwise known as "specific over general", the idea is that the general rules apply unless there is a specific rule that says otherwise.



          You've correctly recalled the general rule for Moving Around Other Creatures:




          Whether a creature is a friend or an enemy, you can't willingly end your move in its space.




          The bulette's Deadly Leap ability has no text contradicting the general rule. The references to what happens with a prone target only address what happens during the leap. Without specific text allowing the bulette to remain in place1, the general rule holds. Because the bulette cannot voluntarily end it's move in another creature's space, it cannot use Deadly Leap if it does not have sufficient movement to clear the target's space after leaping.



          Note, however, that the bulette has a Burrow speed. It still needs to make sure it has enough movement left, but it has one option that most characters do not have: down. Your "good reason" is that if the bulette is underground, the surface dwellers can't fight back.



          Combine that with it's 60 feet of Tremorsense (meaning it knows where the characters above it are) and a bulette can fight by repeatedly leaping out of the ground, landing on people, then disappearing back underground. The player character answer is Ready actions to whack it when it surfaces next.



          1Swarms, for instance say: "The swarm can occupy another creature's space and vice versa, and [...]"






          share|improve this answer



















          • 6




            +1 for the whackamole imagery
            – David Coffron
            yesterday






          • 2




            @DavidCoffron Well, yeah! I recommend a maul for that authentic hammer swinging action. :)
            – T.J.L.
            yesterday



















          3














          The monster manual indicates that the bulette possesses the space at the end of the Deadly Leap.




          "If no unoccupied space is within range, the creature instead falls
          prone in the bulette's space."




          While I like the answer about burrowing, it is not necessary. Picture a humanoid being pinned down by the shoulders by a bear / lion/ bulette during an attack. These creatures certainly occupy the same space during the attack.



          Therefore, since it is the bulette's space, they do not have to move away from it.






          share|improve this answer










          New contributor




          RoryLatham is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
          Check out our Code of Conduct.


















          • That snippet addresses the target's position during/after the Deadly Leap, as coverage for the pushed-away portion of the ability when used in confined spaces. The bulette itself is still bound by the "can't willingly end your move in [another creature's] space" rule.
            – T.J.L.
            yesterday








          • 1




            You could argue, perhaps successfully, that based on this wording the bulette is not ending its move in another creatures space, as that space is now the bulette's, which another creature is inhabiting (who also did not end its move there) therefore that creature must move out of the space on its turn, but for a brief time they can both occupy it.
            – Baergren
            yesterday





















          1














          A move and a turn are not the same thing



          As seen in most of the other answers,




          Whether a creature is a friend or an enemy, you can't willingly end your move in its space.



          (Basic Rules p. 74)




          The rule specifically says you can't end your move in another creature's space, but that doesn't mean you can't end your turn there. With that in mind, I would rule it perfectly legal for the creature and player to share that space for as long as neither one tries to move... assuming of course that the initial "if no unoccupied space is within five feet" clause is met during the Deadly Leap.



          In other words, I'd consider it to technically have ended its move at whatever location from which it launched Deadly Leap. So, if you consider the move to be a subset of the turn, rather than being the turn itself, then it is able to end its turn in the same space as a player character, as long as it didn't use its move to enter that space.



          Also, I'd invoke Rule of Cool here and say that a creature pinning a character down for some time while they thrash around with each other is (probably) more dramatic than the creature kindly stepping aside to give them some space.



          With regard to swarms and the like, which are explicitly allowed to occupy other creatures' space and vice versa, I would rule that both parties can willingly end movement in the other's space, contrary to the movement rule quoted above.






          share|improve this answer










          New contributor




          MrSpudtastic is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
          Check out our Code of Conduct.


















            Your Answer





            StackExchange.ifUsing("editor", function () {
            return StackExchange.using("mathjaxEditing", function () {
            StackExchange.MarkdownEditor.creationCallbacks.add(function (editor, postfix) {
            StackExchange.mathjaxEditing.prepareWmdForMathJax(editor, postfix, [["\$", "\$"]]);
            });
            });
            }, "mathjax-editing");

            StackExchange.ready(function() {
            var channelOptions = {
            tags: "".split(" "),
            id: "122"
            };
            initTagRenderer("".split(" "), "".split(" "), channelOptions);

            StackExchange.using("externalEditor", function() {
            // Have to fire editor after snippets, if snippets enabled
            if (StackExchange.settings.snippets.snippetsEnabled) {
            StackExchange.using("snippets", function() {
            createEditor();
            });
            }
            else {
            createEditor();
            }
            });

            function createEditor() {
            StackExchange.prepareEditor({
            heartbeatType: 'answer',
            autoActivateHeartbeat: false,
            convertImagesToLinks: false,
            noModals: true,
            showLowRepImageUploadWarning: true,
            reputationToPostImages: null,
            bindNavPrevention: true,
            postfix: "",
            imageUploader: {
            brandingHtml: "Powered by u003ca class="icon-imgur-white" href="https://imgur.com/"u003eu003c/au003e",
            contentPolicyHtml: "User contributions licensed under u003ca href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/"u003ecc by-sa 3.0 with attribution requiredu003c/au003e u003ca href="https://stackoverflow.com/legal/content-policy"u003e(content policy)u003c/au003e",
            allowUrls: true
            },
            noCode: true, onDemand: true,
            discardSelector: ".discard-answer"
            ,immediatelyShowMarkdownHelp:true
            });


            }
            });














            draft saved

            draft discarded


















            StackExchange.ready(
            function () {
            StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2frpg.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f138605%2fcan-a-bulette-ignore-the-rule-about-ending-a-turn-in-occupied-space-after-using%23new-answer', 'question_page');
            }
            );

            Post as a guest















            Required, but never shown

























            4 Answers
            4






            active

            oldest

            votes








            4 Answers
            4






            active

            oldest

            votes









            active

            oldest

            votes






            active

            oldest

            votes









            29














            If the creature is prone, the bulette can occupy the space



            From the detailed description we find this specific ability overwriting the general case of movement into another creature's space:




            Deadly Leap

            If the bulette jumps at least 15 ft. as part of its Movement, it can then use this action to land on its feet in a space that contains one or more other creatures. Each of those creatures must succeed on a DC 16 Strength or Dexterity saving throw (target's choice) or be knocked prone and take 14 (3d6 + 4) bludgeoning damage plus 14 (3d6 + 4) slashing damage. On a successful save, the creature takes only half the damage, isn't knocked prone, and is pushed 5 ft. out of the bulette's space into an unoccupied space of the creature's choice. If no unoccupied space is within range, the creature instead falls prone in the bulette's space. (MM, p. 34)




            This looks like a specific case (bulette's special ability) overwriting the general case of the rule about space occupation. At the end of its turn, the bulette ends up occupying the creature's space(s). No limitation on now much movement is used prior to the Deadly Leap is made; so if the last 15' is all that is left, the bulette and its prone targets are in the same space at the end of the bulette's turn. The target area creatures are either prone (under the bulette) or knocked out of the way into an adjacent space (depends on save/no save, space/no space). That ruling holds to "Specific Over General" in a slightly different way that TJL's fine answer. Only proned creatures end up in the same space at the end of the bulette's turn.



            What was the bulette trying to do? Kill/harm the target, or knock it out of the way with a special ability that is mechanically like a spell: it requires a save for half damage, and another effect. This is similar to the Thunderwave spell's condition(knocked back) and damage as result of the spell, with half damage on save and no knockback).



            The bulette is not simply moving "into another creature's square" which is where the general rule comes from: movement. This result is due to a special ability (spell?) of the bulette.



            Specific Beats General




            This book contains rules, especially in parts 2 and 3, that govern how the game plays. That said, many racial traits, class features, spells, magic items, monster abilities, and other game elements break the general rules in some way, creating an exception to how the rest of the game works. Remember this: If a specific rule contradicts a general rule, the specific rule wins.

            (Basic Rules p. 5)




            I'd rule that the specific bulette rule wins over the general rule about "not in the same space" from the movement part of the rules.




            Whether a creature is a friend or an enemy, you can't willingly end your move in its space.

            (Basic Rules p. 74)




            Now what happens?



            If the creature has a reaction that allows movement, they can at that point vacate the space during the bulette's turn (character option). Or, they could try to stand up.



            At this point, your concern on the "no two things in the same place" is more of a problem during the turns of the creatures that were attacked; it is resolved before the end of each creature's turn.




            • Do they back up, stay within reach, and attack?

            • Do they back up further and risk an OA?

            • Does the character remain prone and in the same space (I'd recommend against) and make attacks (if any) at disadvantage?
              Each character / creature makes their own decision.


            At table experience



            I recently ran a battle where two bulette's attacked the merchant caravan the players are escorting/guarding, and this exact issue came up. The above is how I ruled.




            • One of the poor oxen was dismembered. Of course the party Barbarian, after the battle, quoted a LoTR movie line (Two Towers) and bellowed: "Meat's back on the menu, boys!"


            Is this a contradiction?



            No, it makes sense from a simulationist / verisimilitude perspective. D&D 5e is not a computer game: it is a TTRPG. There isn't a piece of code that will crash the game if two states "in this space" are both marked as true. The key is that the targets are prone, rather than upright, leaving the bulette astride them at the end of its turn due a special ability: Deadly Leap. Most creatures don't have that ability. The creatures in the prone state have the chance on their turn to deal with it.






            share|improve this answer























            • Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.
              – doppelgreener
              yesterday
















            29














            If the creature is prone, the bulette can occupy the space



            From the detailed description we find this specific ability overwriting the general case of movement into another creature's space:




            Deadly Leap

            If the bulette jumps at least 15 ft. as part of its Movement, it can then use this action to land on its feet in a space that contains one or more other creatures. Each of those creatures must succeed on a DC 16 Strength or Dexterity saving throw (target's choice) or be knocked prone and take 14 (3d6 + 4) bludgeoning damage plus 14 (3d6 + 4) slashing damage. On a successful save, the creature takes only half the damage, isn't knocked prone, and is pushed 5 ft. out of the bulette's space into an unoccupied space of the creature's choice. If no unoccupied space is within range, the creature instead falls prone in the bulette's space. (MM, p. 34)




            This looks like a specific case (bulette's special ability) overwriting the general case of the rule about space occupation. At the end of its turn, the bulette ends up occupying the creature's space(s). No limitation on now much movement is used prior to the Deadly Leap is made; so if the last 15' is all that is left, the bulette and its prone targets are in the same space at the end of the bulette's turn. The target area creatures are either prone (under the bulette) or knocked out of the way into an adjacent space (depends on save/no save, space/no space). That ruling holds to "Specific Over General" in a slightly different way that TJL's fine answer. Only proned creatures end up in the same space at the end of the bulette's turn.



            What was the bulette trying to do? Kill/harm the target, or knock it out of the way with a special ability that is mechanically like a spell: it requires a save for half damage, and another effect. This is similar to the Thunderwave spell's condition(knocked back) and damage as result of the spell, with half damage on save and no knockback).



            The bulette is not simply moving "into another creature's square" which is where the general rule comes from: movement. This result is due to a special ability (spell?) of the bulette.



            Specific Beats General




            This book contains rules, especially in parts 2 and 3, that govern how the game plays. That said, many racial traits, class features, spells, magic items, monster abilities, and other game elements break the general rules in some way, creating an exception to how the rest of the game works. Remember this: If a specific rule contradicts a general rule, the specific rule wins.

            (Basic Rules p. 5)




            I'd rule that the specific bulette rule wins over the general rule about "not in the same space" from the movement part of the rules.




            Whether a creature is a friend or an enemy, you can't willingly end your move in its space.

            (Basic Rules p. 74)




            Now what happens?



            If the creature has a reaction that allows movement, they can at that point vacate the space during the bulette's turn (character option). Or, they could try to stand up.



            At this point, your concern on the "no two things in the same place" is more of a problem during the turns of the creatures that were attacked; it is resolved before the end of each creature's turn.




            • Do they back up, stay within reach, and attack?

            • Do they back up further and risk an OA?

            • Does the character remain prone and in the same space (I'd recommend against) and make attacks (if any) at disadvantage?
              Each character / creature makes their own decision.


            At table experience



            I recently ran a battle where two bulette's attacked the merchant caravan the players are escorting/guarding, and this exact issue came up. The above is how I ruled.




            • One of the poor oxen was dismembered. Of course the party Barbarian, after the battle, quoted a LoTR movie line (Two Towers) and bellowed: "Meat's back on the menu, boys!"


            Is this a contradiction?



            No, it makes sense from a simulationist / verisimilitude perspective. D&D 5e is not a computer game: it is a TTRPG. There isn't a piece of code that will crash the game if two states "in this space" are both marked as true. The key is that the targets are prone, rather than upright, leaving the bulette astride them at the end of its turn due a special ability: Deadly Leap. Most creatures don't have that ability. The creatures in the prone state have the chance on their turn to deal with it.






            share|improve this answer























            • Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.
              – doppelgreener
              yesterday














            29












            29








            29






            If the creature is prone, the bulette can occupy the space



            From the detailed description we find this specific ability overwriting the general case of movement into another creature's space:




            Deadly Leap

            If the bulette jumps at least 15 ft. as part of its Movement, it can then use this action to land on its feet in a space that contains one or more other creatures. Each of those creatures must succeed on a DC 16 Strength or Dexterity saving throw (target's choice) or be knocked prone and take 14 (3d6 + 4) bludgeoning damage plus 14 (3d6 + 4) slashing damage. On a successful save, the creature takes only half the damage, isn't knocked prone, and is pushed 5 ft. out of the bulette's space into an unoccupied space of the creature's choice. If no unoccupied space is within range, the creature instead falls prone in the bulette's space. (MM, p. 34)




            This looks like a specific case (bulette's special ability) overwriting the general case of the rule about space occupation. At the end of its turn, the bulette ends up occupying the creature's space(s). No limitation on now much movement is used prior to the Deadly Leap is made; so if the last 15' is all that is left, the bulette and its prone targets are in the same space at the end of the bulette's turn. The target area creatures are either prone (under the bulette) or knocked out of the way into an adjacent space (depends on save/no save, space/no space). That ruling holds to "Specific Over General" in a slightly different way that TJL's fine answer. Only proned creatures end up in the same space at the end of the bulette's turn.



            What was the bulette trying to do? Kill/harm the target, or knock it out of the way with a special ability that is mechanically like a spell: it requires a save for half damage, and another effect. This is similar to the Thunderwave spell's condition(knocked back) and damage as result of the spell, with half damage on save and no knockback).



            The bulette is not simply moving "into another creature's square" which is where the general rule comes from: movement. This result is due to a special ability (spell?) of the bulette.



            Specific Beats General




            This book contains rules, especially in parts 2 and 3, that govern how the game plays. That said, many racial traits, class features, spells, magic items, monster abilities, and other game elements break the general rules in some way, creating an exception to how the rest of the game works. Remember this: If a specific rule contradicts a general rule, the specific rule wins.

            (Basic Rules p. 5)




            I'd rule that the specific bulette rule wins over the general rule about "not in the same space" from the movement part of the rules.




            Whether a creature is a friend or an enemy, you can't willingly end your move in its space.

            (Basic Rules p. 74)




            Now what happens?



            If the creature has a reaction that allows movement, they can at that point vacate the space during the bulette's turn (character option). Or, they could try to stand up.



            At this point, your concern on the "no two things in the same place" is more of a problem during the turns of the creatures that were attacked; it is resolved before the end of each creature's turn.




            • Do they back up, stay within reach, and attack?

            • Do they back up further and risk an OA?

            • Does the character remain prone and in the same space (I'd recommend against) and make attacks (if any) at disadvantage?
              Each character / creature makes their own decision.


            At table experience



            I recently ran a battle where two bulette's attacked the merchant caravan the players are escorting/guarding, and this exact issue came up. The above is how I ruled.




            • One of the poor oxen was dismembered. Of course the party Barbarian, after the battle, quoted a LoTR movie line (Two Towers) and bellowed: "Meat's back on the menu, boys!"


            Is this a contradiction?



            No, it makes sense from a simulationist / verisimilitude perspective. D&D 5e is not a computer game: it is a TTRPG. There isn't a piece of code that will crash the game if two states "in this space" are both marked as true. The key is that the targets are prone, rather than upright, leaving the bulette astride them at the end of its turn due a special ability: Deadly Leap. Most creatures don't have that ability. The creatures in the prone state have the chance on their turn to deal with it.






            share|improve this answer














            If the creature is prone, the bulette can occupy the space



            From the detailed description we find this specific ability overwriting the general case of movement into another creature's space:




            Deadly Leap

            If the bulette jumps at least 15 ft. as part of its Movement, it can then use this action to land on its feet in a space that contains one or more other creatures. Each of those creatures must succeed on a DC 16 Strength or Dexterity saving throw (target's choice) or be knocked prone and take 14 (3d6 + 4) bludgeoning damage plus 14 (3d6 + 4) slashing damage. On a successful save, the creature takes only half the damage, isn't knocked prone, and is pushed 5 ft. out of the bulette's space into an unoccupied space of the creature's choice. If no unoccupied space is within range, the creature instead falls prone in the bulette's space. (MM, p. 34)




            This looks like a specific case (bulette's special ability) overwriting the general case of the rule about space occupation. At the end of its turn, the bulette ends up occupying the creature's space(s). No limitation on now much movement is used prior to the Deadly Leap is made; so if the last 15' is all that is left, the bulette and its prone targets are in the same space at the end of the bulette's turn. The target area creatures are either prone (under the bulette) or knocked out of the way into an adjacent space (depends on save/no save, space/no space). That ruling holds to "Specific Over General" in a slightly different way that TJL's fine answer. Only proned creatures end up in the same space at the end of the bulette's turn.



            What was the bulette trying to do? Kill/harm the target, or knock it out of the way with a special ability that is mechanically like a spell: it requires a save for half damage, and another effect. This is similar to the Thunderwave spell's condition(knocked back) and damage as result of the spell, with half damage on save and no knockback).



            The bulette is not simply moving "into another creature's square" which is where the general rule comes from: movement. This result is due to a special ability (spell?) of the bulette.



            Specific Beats General




            This book contains rules, especially in parts 2 and 3, that govern how the game plays. That said, many racial traits, class features, spells, magic items, monster abilities, and other game elements break the general rules in some way, creating an exception to how the rest of the game works. Remember this: If a specific rule contradicts a general rule, the specific rule wins.

            (Basic Rules p. 5)




            I'd rule that the specific bulette rule wins over the general rule about "not in the same space" from the movement part of the rules.




            Whether a creature is a friend or an enemy, you can't willingly end your move in its space.

            (Basic Rules p. 74)




            Now what happens?



            If the creature has a reaction that allows movement, they can at that point vacate the space during the bulette's turn (character option). Or, they could try to stand up.



            At this point, your concern on the "no two things in the same place" is more of a problem during the turns of the creatures that were attacked; it is resolved before the end of each creature's turn.




            • Do they back up, stay within reach, and attack?

            • Do they back up further and risk an OA?

            • Does the character remain prone and in the same space (I'd recommend against) and make attacks (if any) at disadvantage?
              Each character / creature makes their own decision.


            At table experience



            I recently ran a battle where two bulette's attacked the merchant caravan the players are escorting/guarding, and this exact issue came up. The above is how I ruled.




            • One of the poor oxen was dismembered. Of course the party Barbarian, after the battle, quoted a LoTR movie line (Two Towers) and bellowed: "Meat's back on the menu, boys!"


            Is this a contradiction?



            No, it makes sense from a simulationist / verisimilitude perspective. D&D 5e is not a computer game: it is a TTRPG. There isn't a piece of code that will crash the game if two states "in this space" are both marked as true. The key is that the targets are prone, rather than upright, leaving the bulette astride them at the end of its turn due a special ability: Deadly Leap. Most creatures don't have that ability. The creatures in the prone state have the chance on their turn to deal with it.







            share|improve this answer














            share|improve this answer



            share|improve this answer








            edited yesterday

























            answered yesterday









            KorvinStarmastKorvinStarmast

            75k17235409




            75k17235409












            • Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.
              – doppelgreener
              yesterday


















            • Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.
              – doppelgreener
              yesterday
















            Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.
            – doppelgreener
            yesterday




            Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.
            – doppelgreener
            yesterday













            13














            One of the principle design tenets of D&D5E is the concept of "exception based design". Otherwise known as "specific over general", the idea is that the general rules apply unless there is a specific rule that says otherwise.



            You've correctly recalled the general rule for Moving Around Other Creatures:




            Whether a creature is a friend or an enemy, you can't willingly end your move in its space.




            The bulette's Deadly Leap ability has no text contradicting the general rule. The references to what happens with a prone target only address what happens during the leap. Without specific text allowing the bulette to remain in place1, the general rule holds. Because the bulette cannot voluntarily end it's move in another creature's space, it cannot use Deadly Leap if it does not have sufficient movement to clear the target's space after leaping.



            Note, however, that the bulette has a Burrow speed. It still needs to make sure it has enough movement left, but it has one option that most characters do not have: down. Your "good reason" is that if the bulette is underground, the surface dwellers can't fight back.



            Combine that with it's 60 feet of Tremorsense (meaning it knows where the characters above it are) and a bulette can fight by repeatedly leaping out of the ground, landing on people, then disappearing back underground. The player character answer is Ready actions to whack it when it surfaces next.



            1Swarms, for instance say: "The swarm can occupy another creature's space and vice versa, and [...]"






            share|improve this answer



















            • 6




              +1 for the whackamole imagery
              – David Coffron
              yesterday






            • 2




              @DavidCoffron Well, yeah! I recommend a maul for that authentic hammer swinging action. :)
              – T.J.L.
              yesterday
















            13














            One of the principle design tenets of D&D5E is the concept of "exception based design". Otherwise known as "specific over general", the idea is that the general rules apply unless there is a specific rule that says otherwise.



            You've correctly recalled the general rule for Moving Around Other Creatures:




            Whether a creature is a friend or an enemy, you can't willingly end your move in its space.




            The bulette's Deadly Leap ability has no text contradicting the general rule. The references to what happens with a prone target only address what happens during the leap. Without specific text allowing the bulette to remain in place1, the general rule holds. Because the bulette cannot voluntarily end it's move in another creature's space, it cannot use Deadly Leap if it does not have sufficient movement to clear the target's space after leaping.



            Note, however, that the bulette has a Burrow speed. It still needs to make sure it has enough movement left, but it has one option that most characters do not have: down. Your "good reason" is that if the bulette is underground, the surface dwellers can't fight back.



            Combine that with it's 60 feet of Tremorsense (meaning it knows where the characters above it are) and a bulette can fight by repeatedly leaping out of the ground, landing on people, then disappearing back underground. The player character answer is Ready actions to whack it when it surfaces next.



            1Swarms, for instance say: "The swarm can occupy another creature's space and vice versa, and [...]"






            share|improve this answer



















            • 6




              +1 for the whackamole imagery
              – David Coffron
              yesterday






            • 2




              @DavidCoffron Well, yeah! I recommend a maul for that authentic hammer swinging action. :)
              – T.J.L.
              yesterday














            13












            13








            13






            One of the principle design tenets of D&D5E is the concept of "exception based design". Otherwise known as "specific over general", the idea is that the general rules apply unless there is a specific rule that says otherwise.



            You've correctly recalled the general rule for Moving Around Other Creatures:




            Whether a creature is a friend or an enemy, you can't willingly end your move in its space.




            The bulette's Deadly Leap ability has no text contradicting the general rule. The references to what happens with a prone target only address what happens during the leap. Without specific text allowing the bulette to remain in place1, the general rule holds. Because the bulette cannot voluntarily end it's move in another creature's space, it cannot use Deadly Leap if it does not have sufficient movement to clear the target's space after leaping.



            Note, however, that the bulette has a Burrow speed. It still needs to make sure it has enough movement left, but it has one option that most characters do not have: down. Your "good reason" is that if the bulette is underground, the surface dwellers can't fight back.



            Combine that with it's 60 feet of Tremorsense (meaning it knows where the characters above it are) and a bulette can fight by repeatedly leaping out of the ground, landing on people, then disappearing back underground. The player character answer is Ready actions to whack it when it surfaces next.



            1Swarms, for instance say: "The swarm can occupy another creature's space and vice versa, and [...]"






            share|improve this answer














            One of the principle design tenets of D&D5E is the concept of "exception based design". Otherwise known as "specific over general", the idea is that the general rules apply unless there is a specific rule that says otherwise.



            You've correctly recalled the general rule for Moving Around Other Creatures:




            Whether a creature is a friend or an enemy, you can't willingly end your move in its space.




            The bulette's Deadly Leap ability has no text contradicting the general rule. The references to what happens with a prone target only address what happens during the leap. Without specific text allowing the bulette to remain in place1, the general rule holds. Because the bulette cannot voluntarily end it's move in another creature's space, it cannot use Deadly Leap if it does not have sufficient movement to clear the target's space after leaping.



            Note, however, that the bulette has a Burrow speed. It still needs to make sure it has enough movement left, but it has one option that most characters do not have: down. Your "good reason" is that if the bulette is underground, the surface dwellers can't fight back.



            Combine that with it's 60 feet of Tremorsense (meaning it knows where the characters above it are) and a bulette can fight by repeatedly leaping out of the ground, landing on people, then disappearing back underground. The player character answer is Ready actions to whack it when it surfaces next.



            1Swarms, for instance say: "The swarm can occupy another creature's space and vice versa, and [...]"







            share|improve this answer














            share|improve this answer



            share|improve this answer








            edited yesterday

























            answered yesterday









            T.J.L.T.J.L.

            29.8k5102156




            29.8k5102156








            • 6




              +1 for the whackamole imagery
              – David Coffron
              yesterday






            • 2




              @DavidCoffron Well, yeah! I recommend a maul for that authentic hammer swinging action. :)
              – T.J.L.
              yesterday














            • 6




              +1 for the whackamole imagery
              – David Coffron
              yesterday






            • 2




              @DavidCoffron Well, yeah! I recommend a maul for that authentic hammer swinging action. :)
              – T.J.L.
              yesterday








            6




            6




            +1 for the whackamole imagery
            – David Coffron
            yesterday




            +1 for the whackamole imagery
            – David Coffron
            yesterday




            2




            2




            @DavidCoffron Well, yeah! I recommend a maul for that authentic hammer swinging action. :)
            – T.J.L.
            yesterday




            @DavidCoffron Well, yeah! I recommend a maul for that authentic hammer swinging action. :)
            – T.J.L.
            yesterday











            3














            The monster manual indicates that the bulette possesses the space at the end of the Deadly Leap.




            "If no unoccupied space is within range, the creature instead falls
            prone in the bulette's space."




            While I like the answer about burrowing, it is not necessary. Picture a humanoid being pinned down by the shoulders by a bear / lion/ bulette during an attack. These creatures certainly occupy the same space during the attack.



            Therefore, since it is the bulette's space, they do not have to move away from it.






            share|improve this answer










            New contributor




            RoryLatham is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
            Check out our Code of Conduct.


















            • That snippet addresses the target's position during/after the Deadly Leap, as coverage for the pushed-away portion of the ability when used in confined spaces. The bulette itself is still bound by the "can't willingly end your move in [another creature's] space" rule.
              – T.J.L.
              yesterday








            • 1




              You could argue, perhaps successfully, that based on this wording the bulette is not ending its move in another creatures space, as that space is now the bulette's, which another creature is inhabiting (who also did not end its move there) therefore that creature must move out of the space on its turn, but for a brief time they can both occupy it.
              – Baergren
              yesterday


















            3














            The monster manual indicates that the bulette possesses the space at the end of the Deadly Leap.




            "If no unoccupied space is within range, the creature instead falls
            prone in the bulette's space."




            While I like the answer about burrowing, it is not necessary. Picture a humanoid being pinned down by the shoulders by a bear / lion/ bulette during an attack. These creatures certainly occupy the same space during the attack.



            Therefore, since it is the bulette's space, they do not have to move away from it.






            share|improve this answer










            New contributor




            RoryLatham is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
            Check out our Code of Conduct.


















            • That snippet addresses the target's position during/after the Deadly Leap, as coverage for the pushed-away portion of the ability when used in confined spaces. The bulette itself is still bound by the "can't willingly end your move in [another creature's] space" rule.
              – T.J.L.
              yesterday








            • 1




              You could argue, perhaps successfully, that based on this wording the bulette is not ending its move in another creatures space, as that space is now the bulette's, which another creature is inhabiting (who also did not end its move there) therefore that creature must move out of the space on its turn, but for a brief time they can both occupy it.
              – Baergren
              yesterday
















            3












            3








            3






            The monster manual indicates that the bulette possesses the space at the end of the Deadly Leap.




            "If no unoccupied space is within range, the creature instead falls
            prone in the bulette's space."




            While I like the answer about burrowing, it is not necessary. Picture a humanoid being pinned down by the shoulders by a bear / lion/ bulette during an attack. These creatures certainly occupy the same space during the attack.



            Therefore, since it is the bulette's space, they do not have to move away from it.






            share|improve this answer










            New contributor




            RoryLatham is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
            Check out our Code of Conduct.









            The monster manual indicates that the bulette possesses the space at the end of the Deadly Leap.




            "If no unoccupied space is within range, the creature instead falls
            prone in the bulette's space."




            While I like the answer about burrowing, it is not necessary. Picture a humanoid being pinned down by the shoulders by a bear / lion/ bulette during an attack. These creatures certainly occupy the same space during the attack.



            Therefore, since it is the bulette's space, they do not have to move away from it.







            share|improve this answer










            New contributor




            RoryLatham is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
            Check out our Code of Conduct.









            share|improve this answer



            share|improve this answer








            edited yesterday









            KorvinStarmast

            75k17235409




            75k17235409






            New contributor




            RoryLatham is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
            Check out our Code of Conduct.









            answered yesterday









            RoryLathamRoryLatham

            392




            392




            New contributor




            RoryLatham is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
            Check out our Code of Conduct.





            New contributor





            RoryLatham is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
            Check out our Code of Conduct.






            RoryLatham is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
            Check out our Code of Conduct.












            • That snippet addresses the target's position during/after the Deadly Leap, as coverage for the pushed-away portion of the ability when used in confined spaces. The bulette itself is still bound by the "can't willingly end your move in [another creature's] space" rule.
              – T.J.L.
              yesterday








            • 1




              You could argue, perhaps successfully, that based on this wording the bulette is not ending its move in another creatures space, as that space is now the bulette's, which another creature is inhabiting (who also did not end its move there) therefore that creature must move out of the space on its turn, but for a brief time they can both occupy it.
              – Baergren
              yesterday




















            • That snippet addresses the target's position during/after the Deadly Leap, as coverage for the pushed-away portion of the ability when used in confined spaces. The bulette itself is still bound by the "can't willingly end your move in [another creature's] space" rule.
              – T.J.L.
              yesterday








            • 1




              You could argue, perhaps successfully, that based on this wording the bulette is not ending its move in another creatures space, as that space is now the bulette's, which another creature is inhabiting (who also did not end its move there) therefore that creature must move out of the space on its turn, but for a brief time they can both occupy it.
              – Baergren
              yesterday


















            That snippet addresses the target's position during/after the Deadly Leap, as coverage for the pushed-away portion of the ability when used in confined spaces. The bulette itself is still bound by the "can't willingly end your move in [another creature's] space" rule.
            – T.J.L.
            yesterday






            That snippet addresses the target's position during/after the Deadly Leap, as coverage for the pushed-away portion of the ability when used in confined spaces. The bulette itself is still bound by the "can't willingly end your move in [another creature's] space" rule.
            – T.J.L.
            yesterday






            1




            1




            You could argue, perhaps successfully, that based on this wording the bulette is not ending its move in another creatures space, as that space is now the bulette's, which another creature is inhabiting (who also did not end its move there) therefore that creature must move out of the space on its turn, but for a brief time they can both occupy it.
            – Baergren
            yesterday






            You could argue, perhaps successfully, that based on this wording the bulette is not ending its move in another creatures space, as that space is now the bulette's, which another creature is inhabiting (who also did not end its move there) therefore that creature must move out of the space on its turn, but for a brief time they can both occupy it.
            – Baergren
            yesterday













            1














            A move and a turn are not the same thing



            As seen in most of the other answers,




            Whether a creature is a friend or an enemy, you can't willingly end your move in its space.



            (Basic Rules p. 74)




            The rule specifically says you can't end your move in another creature's space, but that doesn't mean you can't end your turn there. With that in mind, I would rule it perfectly legal for the creature and player to share that space for as long as neither one tries to move... assuming of course that the initial "if no unoccupied space is within five feet" clause is met during the Deadly Leap.



            In other words, I'd consider it to technically have ended its move at whatever location from which it launched Deadly Leap. So, if you consider the move to be a subset of the turn, rather than being the turn itself, then it is able to end its turn in the same space as a player character, as long as it didn't use its move to enter that space.



            Also, I'd invoke Rule of Cool here and say that a creature pinning a character down for some time while they thrash around with each other is (probably) more dramatic than the creature kindly stepping aside to give them some space.



            With regard to swarms and the like, which are explicitly allowed to occupy other creatures' space and vice versa, I would rule that both parties can willingly end movement in the other's space, contrary to the movement rule quoted above.






            share|improve this answer










            New contributor




            MrSpudtastic is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
            Check out our Code of Conduct.























              1














              A move and a turn are not the same thing



              As seen in most of the other answers,




              Whether a creature is a friend or an enemy, you can't willingly end your move in its space.



              (Basic Rules p. 74)




              The rule specifically says you can't end your move in another creature's space, but that doesn't mean you can't end your turn there. With that in mind, I would rule it perfectly legal for the creature and player to share that space for as long as neither one tries to move... assuming of course that the initial "if no unoccupied space is within five feet" clause is met during the Deadly Leap.



              In other words, I'd consider it to technically have ended its move at whatever location from which it launched Deadly Leap. So, if you consider the move to be a subset of the turn, rather than being the turn itself, then it is able to end its turn in the same space as a player character, as long as it didn't use its move to enter that space.



              Also, I'd invoke Rule of Cool here and say that a creature pinning a character down for some time while they thrash around with each other is (probably) more dramatic than the creature kindly stepping aside to give them some space.



              With regard to swarms and the like, which are explicitly allowed to occupy other creatures' space and vice versa, I would rule that both parties can willingly end movement in the other's space, contrary to the movement rule quoted above.






              share|improve this answer










              New contributor




              MrSpudtastic is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
              Check out our Code of Conduct.





















                1












                1








                1






                A move and a turn are not the same thing



                As seen in most of the other answers,




                Whether a creature is a friend or an enemy, you can't willingly end your move in its space.



                (Basic Rules p. 74)




                The rule specifically says you can't end your move in another creature's space, but that doesn't mean you can't end your turn there. With that in mind, I would rule it perfectly legal for the creature and player to share that space for as long as neither one tries to move... assuming of course that the initial "if no unoccupied space is within five feet" clause is met during the Deadly Leap.



                In other words, I'd consider it to technically have ended its move at whatever location from which it launched Deadly Leap. So, if you consider the move to be a subset of the turn, rather than being the turn itself, then it is able to end its turn in the same space as a player character, as long as it didn't use its move to enter that space.



                Also, I'd invoke Rule of Cool here and say that a creature pinning a character down for some time while they thrash around with each other is (probably) more dramatic than the creature kindly stepping aside to give them some space.



                With regard to swarms and the like, which are explicitly allowed to occupy other creatures' space and vice versa, I would rule that both parties can willingly end movement in the other's space, contrary to the movement rule quoted above.






                share|improve this answer










                New contributor




                MrSpudtastic is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                Check out our Code of Conduct.









                A move and a turn are not the same thing



                As seen in most of the other answers,




                Whether a creature is a friend or an enemy, you can't willingly end your move in its space.



                (Basic Rules p. 74)




                The rule specifically says you can't end your move in another creature's space, but that doesn't mean you can't end your turn there. With that in mind, I would rule it perfectly legal for the creature and player to share that space for as long as neither one tries to move... assuming of course that the initial "if no unoccupied space is within five feet" clause is met during the Deadly Leap.



                In other words, I'd consider it to technically have ended its move at whatever location from which it launched Deadly Leap. So, if you consider the move to be a subset of the turn, rather than being the turn itself, then it is able to end its turn in the same space as a player character, as long as it didn't use its move to enter that space.



                Also, I'd invoke Rule of Cool here and say that a creature pinning a character down for some time while they thrash around with each other is (probably) more dramatic than the creature kindly stepping aside to give them some space.



                With regard to swarms and the like, which are explicitly allowed to occupy other creatures' space and vice versa, I would rule that both parties can willingly end movement in the other's space, contrary to the movement rule quoted above.







                share|improve this answer










                New contributor




                MrSpudtastic is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                Check out our Code of Conduct.









                share|improve this answer



                share|improve this answer








                edited 21 hours ago









                V2Blast

                19.9k357123




                19.9k357123






                New contributor




                MrSpudtastic is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                Check out our Code of Conduct.









                answered 21 hours ago









                MrSpudtasticMrSpudtastic

                1112




                1112




                New contributor




                MrSpudtastic is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                Check out our Code of Conduct.





                New contributor





                MrSpudtastic is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                Check out our Code of Conduct.






                MrSpudtastic is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                Check out our Code of Conduct.






























                    draft saved

                    draft discarded




















































                    Thanks for contributing an answer to Role-playing Games Stack Exchange!


                    • Please be sure to answer the question. Provide details and share your research!

                    But avoid



                    • Asking for help, clarification, or responding to other answers.

                    • Making statements based on opinion; back them up with references or personal experience.


                    Use MathJax to format equations. MathJax reference.


                    To learn more, see our tips on writing great answers.





                    Some of your past answers have not been well-received, and you're in danger of being blocked from answering.


                    Please pay close attention to the following guidance:


                    • Please be sure to answer the question. Provide details and share your research!

                    But avoid



                    • Asking for help, clarification, or responding to other answers.

                    • Making statements based on opinion; back them up with references or personal experience.


                    To learn more, see our tips on writing great answers.




                    draft saved


                    draft discarded














                    StackExchange.ready(
                    function () {
                    StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2frpg.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f138605%2fcan-a-bulette-ignore-the-rule-about-ending-a-turn-in-occupied-space-after-using%23new-answer', 'question_page');
                    }
                    );

                    Post as a guest















                    Required, but never shown





















































                    Required, but never shown














                    Required, but never shown












                    Required, but never shown







                    Required, but never shown

































                    Required, but never shown














                    Required, but never shown












                    Required, but never shown







                    Required, but never shown







                    Popular posts from this blog

                    1300-talet

                    1300-talet

                    Display a custom attribute below product name in the front-end Magento 1.9.3.8