Why are some specific seats marked as prioritized for people in need?
Inspired by Can I use a priority seat if it is vacant?
Many trains, buses and subways have seats that are marked as "priority seats", meaning that the people who are in greater need of a seat, such as the elderly or pregnant women, should have preferential access to those seats. However:
- In many locales, including my own, it's totally ok for anyone to use one of those seats as long as no one else needs them.
- Also in my locale at least, the idea that people in greater need should be given preference applies, by common sense, to all seats. For example if a frail person boards a full train, someone will get up to let them seat, no matter if the seat is marked as priority or not.
What I don't understand then, is why some specific seats are marked as priority and others are not, since I fail to see any difference in practice. More often than not the seats in question are identical and equally accessible. What's the reason for this distinction?
Edit: to clarify, I'm primarily referring to the case when the seats that are marked as priority are, at first glance, not more convenient than the other seats in any way. Not bigger or with more room around or even nearer to the door.
public-transport seating
New contributor
|
show 6 more comments
Inspired by Can I use a priority seat if it is vacant?
Many trains, buses and subways have seats that are marked as "priority seats", meaning that the people who are in greater need of a seat, such as the elderly or pregnant women, should have preferential access to those seats. However:
- In many locales, including my own, it's totally ok for anyone to use one of those seats as long as no one else needs them.
- Also in my locale at least, the idea that people in greater need should be given preference applies, by common sense, to all seats. For example if a frail person boards a full train, someone will get up to let them seat, no matter if the seat is marked as priority or not.
What I don't understand then, is why some specific seats are marked as priority and others are not, since I fail to see any difference in practice. More often than not the seats in question are identical and equally accessible. What's the reason for this distinction?
Edit: to clarify, I'm primarily referring to the case when the seats that are marked as priority are, at first glance, not more convenient than the other seats in any way. Not bigger or with more room around or even nearer to the door.
public-transport seating
New contributor
14
@fkraiem If you think that the reason some seats are marked as priority is that whoever took that decision expected that only users who really need them would use them, that would be a valid answer to my question, feel free to post it. I based my question on the premise of what I perceive as accepted behavior where I'm from, regardless of whether I agree with it or not.
– abl
23 hours ago
24
@fkraiem - that's a poor argument in real life. Take the average London tube train. 6 carriages, each with 3 doors; 16 priority seats per carriage, nearest to each door. That's 96 seats that would be left empty all the time just in case anyone needed one. The reason there are so many seats is that someone in need of one doesn't need to find the only available seat of a more accurately-devised number, they can get on any door.
– Tetsujin
16 hours ago
2
@Tetsujin "that would be left empty all the time" How so? If the people that need them use them, they won't be empty. In fact, if the proportion of priority seats matches the proportion of people needing them, they will be just as filled as the whole carriage. A London tube carriage has an average capacity of 140 people (70% standing, source), 16/140 is just above 10%, I'd argue that there is at least 10% of people that needs those seats and if the proportion seems right, they will be filled and should be left empty.
– zakinster
14 hours ago
6
I'm revising my figures - it appears the priority seats are in pairs, not 4's other than some specialist carriages - but I still see no argument that an empty seat should be left empty 'just in case'. 40 minutes with your face pressed into some big guy's armpit & someone else's rucksack shoved in your back every rush hour is no-one's idea of fun; why make it worse by essentially designating some of the available space as 'no-go, unless'.
– Tetsujin
14 hours ago
2
@zakinster Even if the proportion of priority seats matches the proportion of population that needs them, those people would somehow have to evenly distribute themselves among the carriages in order to maximize the use of the seats. The "correct" proportion of seats doesn't fix the problem, you'll still wind up with sometimes having too few priority seats and sometimes leaving them vacant. I agree with Tetsujin that it's likely they put in more seats than needed so that some can be made available, with the understanding that usually they'll be treated as regular seats.
– Nuclear Wang
11 hours ago
|
show 6 more comments
Inspired by Can I use a priority seat if it is vacant?
Many trains, buses and subways have seats that are marked as "priority seats", meaning that the people who are in greater need of a seat, such as the elderly or pregnant women, should have preferential access to those seats. However:
- In many locales, including my own, it's totally ok for anyone to use one of those seats as long as no one else needs them.
- Also in my locale at least, the idea that people in greater need should be given preference applies, by common sense, to all seats. For example if a frail person boards a full train, someone will get up to let them seat, no matter if the seat is marked as priority or not.
What I don't understand then, is why some specific seats are marked as priority and others are not, since I fail to see any difference in practice. More often than not the seats in question are identical and equally accessible. What's the reason for this distinction?
Edit: to clarify, I'm primarily referring to the case when the seats that are marked as priority are, at first glance, not more convenient than the other seats in any way. Not bigger or with more room around or even nearer to the door.
public-transport seating
New contributor
Inspired by Can I use a priority seat if it is vacant?
Many trains, buses and subways have seats that are marked as "priority seats", meaning that the people who are in greater need of a seat, such as the elderly or pregnant women, should have preferential access to those seats. However:
- In many locales, including my own, it's totally ok for anyone to use one of those seats as long as no one else needs them.
- Also in my locale at least, the idea that people in greater need should be given preference applies, by common sense, to all seats. For example if a frail person boards a full train, someone will get up to let them seat, no matter if the seat is marked as priority or not.
What I don't understand then, is why some specific seats are marked as priority and others are not, since I fail to see any difference in practice. More often than not the seats in question are identical and equally accessible. What's the reason for this distinction?
Edit: to clarify, I'm primarily referring to the case when the seats that are marked as priority are, at first glance, not more convenient than the other seats in any way. Not bigger or with more room around or even nearer to the door.
public-transport seating
public-transport seating
New contributor
New contributor
edited yesterday
New contributor
asked yesterday
abl
23016
23016
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New contributor
14
@fkraiem If you think that the reason some seats are marked as priority is that whoever took that decision expected that only users who really need them would use them, that would be a valid answer to my question, feel free to post it. I based my question on the premise of what I perceive as accepted behavior where I'm from, regardless of whether I agree with it or not.
– abl
23 hours ago
24
@fkraiem - that's a poor argument in real life. Take the average London tube train. 6 carriages, each with 3 doors; 16 priority seats per carriage, nearest to each door. That's 96 seats that would be left empty all the time just in case anyone needed one. The reason there are so many seats is that someone in need of one doesn't need to find the only available seat of a more accurately-devised number, they can get on any door.
– Tetsujin
16 hours ago
2
@Tetsujin "that would be left empty all the time" How so? If the people that need them use them, they won't be empty. In fact, if the proportion of priority seats matches the proportion of people needing them, they will be just as filled as the whole carriage. A London tube carriage has an average capacity of 140 people (70% standing, source), 16/140 is just above 10%, I'd argue that there is at least 10% of people that needs those seats and if the proportion seems right, they will be filled and should be left empty.
– zakinster
14 hours ago
6
I'm revising my figures - it appears the priority seats are in pairs, not 4's other than some specialist carriages - but I still see no argument that an empty seat should be left empty 'just in case'. 40 minutes with your face pressed into some big guy's armpit & someone else's rucksack shoved in your back every rush hour is no-one's idea of fun; why make it worse by essentially designating some of the available space as 'no-go, unless'.
– Tetsujin
14 hours ago
2
@zakinster Even if the proportion of priority seats matches the proportion of population that needs them, those people would somehow have to evenly distribute themselves among the carriages in order to maximize the use of the seats. The "correct" proportion of seats doesn't fix the problem, you'll still wind up with sometimes having too few priority seats and sometimes leaving them vacant. I agree with Tetsujin that it's likely they put in more seats than needed so that some can be made available, with the understanding that usually they'll be treated as regular seats.
– Nuclear Wang
11 hours ago
|
show 6 more comments
14
@fkraiem If you think that the reason some seats are marked as priority is that whoever took that decision expected that only users who really need them would use them, that would be a valid answer to my question, feel free to post it. I based my question on the premise of what I perceive as accepted behavior where I'm from, regardless of whether I agree with it or not.
– abl
23 hours ago
24
@fkraiem - that's a poor argument in real life. Take the average London tube train. 6 carriages, each with 3 doors; 16 priority seats per carriage, nearest to each door. That's 96 seats that would be left empty all the time just in case anyone needed one. The reason there are so many seats is that someone in need of one doesn't need to find the only available seat of a more accurately-devised number, they can get on any door.
– Tetsujin
16 hours ago
2
@Tetsujin "that would be left empty all the time" How so? If the people that need them use them, they won't be empty. In fact, if the proportion of priority seats matches the proportion of people needing them, they will be just as filled as the whole carriage. A London tube carriage has an average capacity of 140 people (70% standing, source), 16/140 is just above 10%, I'd argue that there is at least 10% of people that needs those seats and if the proportion seems right, they will be filled and should be left empty.
– zakinster
14 hours ago
6
I'm revising my figures - it appears the priority seats are in pairs, not 4's other than some specialist carriages - but I still see no argument that an empty seat should be left empty 'just in case'. 40 minutes with your face pressed into some big guy's armpit & someone else's rucksack shoved in your back every rush hour is no-one's idea of fun; why make it worse by essentially designating some of the available space as 'no-go, unless'.
– Tetsujin
14 hours ago
2
@zakinster Even if the proportion of priority seats matches the proportion of population that needs them, those people would somehow have to evenly distribute themselves among the carriages in order to maximize the use of the seats. The "correct" proportion of seats doesn't fix the problem, you'll still wind up with sometimes having too few priority seats and sometimes leaving them vacant. I agree with Tetsujin that it's likely they put in more seats than needed so that some can be made available, with the understanding that usually they'll be treated as regular seats.
– Nuclear Wang
11 hours ago
14
14
@fkraiem If you think that the reason some seats are marked as priority is that whoever took that decision expected that only users who really need them would use them, that would be a valid answer to my question, feel free to post it. I based my question on the premise of what I perceive as accepted behavior where I'm from, regardless of whether I agree with it or not.
– abl
23 hours ago
@fkraiem If you think that the reason some seats are marked as priority is that whoever took that decision expected that only users who really need them would use them, that would be a valid answer to my question, feel free to post it. I based my question on the premise of what I perceive as accepted behavior where I'm from, regardless of whether I agree with it or not.
– abl
23 hours ago
24
24
@fkraiem - that's a poor argument in real life. Take the average London tube train. 6 carriages, each with 3 doors; 16 priority seats per carriage, nearest to each door. That's 96 seats that would be left empty all the time just in case anyone needed one. The reason there are so many seats is that someone in need of one doesn't need to find the only available seat of a more accurately-devised number, they can get on any door.
– Tetsujin
16 hours ago
@fkraiem - that's a poor argument in real life. Take the average London tube train. 6 carriages, each with 3 doors; 16 priority seats per carriage, nearest to each door. That's 96 seats that would be left empty all the time just in case anyone needed one. The reason there are so many seats is that someone in need of one doesn't need to find the only available seat of a more accurately-devised number, they can get on any door.
– Tetsujin
16 hours ago
2
2
@Tetsujin "that would be left empty all the time" How so? If the people that need them use them, they won't be empty. In fact, if the proportion of priority seats matches the proportion of people needing them, they will be just as filled as the whole carriage. A London tube carriage has an average capacity of 140 people (70% standing, source), 16/140 is just above 10%, I'd argue that there is at least 10% of people that needs those seats and if the proportion seems right, they will be filled and should be left empty.
– zakinster
14 hours ago
@Tetsujin "that would be left empty all the time" How so? If the people that need them use them, they won't be empty. In fact, if the proportion of priority seats matches the proportion of people needing them, they will be just as filled as the whole carriage. A London tube carriage has an average capacity of 140 people (70% standing, source), 16/140 is just above 10%, I'd argue that there is at least 10% of people that needs those seats and if the proportion seems right, they will be filled and should be left empty.
– zakinster
14 hours ago
6
6
I'm revising my figures - it appears the priority seats are in pairs, not 4's other than some specialist carriages - but I still see no argument that an empty seat should be left empty 'just in case'. 40 minutes with your face pressed into some big guy's armpit & someone else's rucksack shoved in your back every rush hour is no-one's idea of fun; why make it worse by essentially designating some of the available space as 'no-go, unless'.
– Tetsujin
14 hours ago
I'm revising my figures - it appears the priority seats are in pairs, not 4's other than some specialist carriages - but I still see no argument that an empty seat should be left empty 'just in case'. 40 minutes with your face pressed into some big guy's armpit & someone else's rucksack shoved in your back every rush hour is no-one's idea of fun; why make it worse by essentially designating some of the available space as 'no-go, unless'.
– Tetsujin
14 hours ago
2
2
@zakinster Even if the proportion of priority seats matches the proportion of population that needs them, those people would somehow have to evenly distribute themselves among the carriages in order to maximize the use of the seats. The "correct" proportion of seats doesn't fix the problem, you'll still wind up with sometimes having too few priority seats and sometimes leaving them vacant. I agree with Tetsujin that it's likely they put in more seats than needed so that some can be made available, with the understanding that usually they'll be treated as regular seats.
– Nuclear Wang
11 hours ago
@zakinster Even if the proportion of priority seats matches the proportion of population that needs them, those people would somehow have to evenly distribute themselves among the carriages in order to maximize the use of the seats. The "correct" proportion of seats doesn't fix the problem, you'll still wind up with sometimes having too few priority seats and sometimes leaving them vacant. I agree with Tetsujin that it's likely they put in more seats than needed so that some can be made available, with the understanding that usually they'll be treated as regular seats.
– Nuclear Wang
11 hours ago
|
show 6 more comments
5 Answers
5
active
oldest
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As well as Johns-305's excellent answer there is another good reason for designating some seats as priority seats.
It enables the operators to enforce the 'give up your seat for someone who needs it' rule, without either having to make it a formal universal rule, or have the driver decide who has to give up their seat. It may seem like 'common sense' that people give up their sets to those who need it, but people don't always do the common sense thing.
Let's imagine a situation where there are no designated seats, the bus is full, and someone needing a seat for real, medical reason gets on. Nobody voluntarily gives up their seat. The person is left with either standing (which may be literally impossible for them) or asking a random person to give up their seat. It's possible that person might say "I don't want to, get that other person to give up their seat instead. They are younger/fitter/carrying less.". That person may think a third person is better able to stand. Now you've got an argument and no way of resolving it.
With a designated seat it's easy. The person needing the seat asks the one occupying the designated seat to give it up. They may grumble, but the sign is there, they knew they might have to do this when they sat in it. The driver can even enforce it without seeming arbitrary.
8
This is especially important if the argument for who should give up their seat is going to end up involving some other sort of power imbalance.
– R..
yesterday
5
Excellent answer & explanation, only thing I would add is that priority seats are often left empty slightly longer than normal seats (if a person can choose for a non-priority or a priority seat they will often choose the non-priority one), thus leaving priority seats near the entrance open.
– David Mulder
16 hours ago
Plus, priority seats rarely conflicts with wheelchair space, so if you need to kick someone from his seat to fold it and maneuver wheelchair, it won't be another disabled person.
– Mołot
14 hours ago
1
It also works the other way - if you're healthy but don't want to be asked to vacate your seat (eg. afraid of the social interaction or don't speak local language), you simply pass the priority one and keep standing. Designating priority seats is a win-win scenario.
– Agent_L
13 hours ago
8
Relevant source: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bystander_effect That's why in an emergency you don't ask "somebody call the ambulance", you pick one bystander and say "you call the ambulance". Designated seats are basically saying "you vacate the seat", thus removing diffusion of responsibility.
– Agent_L
13 hours ago
add a comment |
Here are some reasons for this. To be clear, the exact reasoning would vary by operator or agency.
- The Priority seats are often next to the door allowing easier access when boarding, exiting, and in case of emergency.
- The Priority seats are often dual-purpose and can be folded/stowed to accommodate mobility devices.
- Designating seats as Priority is an extra push to make them available. Yes, you should relinquish any seat to a rider with a broken leg, but you really, really should relinquish the designated seats.
- Accessibility is a major issue in developed nations. Having designated Priority seats is beneficial operationally (as above) and in public opinion for the operator.
6
An addition to bullet #3: designating a specific seat helps to avoid the bystander effect: if you take the priority seat, you are the one who should give your place up first.
– molnarm
17 hours ago
Also an addition to the #1: These seats are almost always at the same elevation as the bus "floor", so that you don't have to climb up or down on the bus. Especially important for elderly with weak knees and pregnant women. (in comparison, most other seats on our buses in Turkey are elevated for some reason or another, usually due to technical limitations of the bus design)
– John Hamilton
16 hours ago
add a comment |
The designated priority seats are "better" for people with various disabilities, in various different ways:
- As @Johns-305 points out, they can be folded to accommodate mobility devices.
- They are next to a door, so a person with a disability needn't go far.
- Guide dogs are often trained to guide a person to particular seats. Those seats might also have more room, to accommodate the dog.
- On a bus, the window seat isn't too accessible, nor is the seat that's on top of the wheel (and is a bit higher). Various seat configurations in buses exist, but in all cases not all seats are equally accessible. The designated-priority seats are the ones that are accessible.
Thus, a person taking a priority seat is aware that the seat he's taken is the one that would be needed by a person with a disability - another seat won't be an acceptable substitute.
And in the same vein, requiring trains and buses to have designated seats implies requiring seats that would fit the various needs of people with various disabilities. "Any seat" just won't do.
1
That makes total sense in those cases where it's true. I asked the question because, if I recall correctly, I've seen quite a few trains where the reserved seats don't appear to be more convenient in any respect. Often the seats are in groups of four, two facing two, and in every carriage a seemingly random group of four is designated priority seating. In the infrequent case where there are four people with reduced mobility, it seems it would be actually a bad idea to seat them together, since the ones on the aisle have to get up to allow the ones on the window to take the seat or hop off.
– abl
yesterday
3
@abl Can you say where you've seen this "random" placement of priority seats? For instance, on all the UK trains I've seen, they've been near the doors (or, possibly, the toilets).
– TripeHound
yesterday
@TripeHound In Barcelona and surroundings. I can't say for sure that the placement is really random, but I remember wondering why those were chosen as priority seats and not finding an obvious reason. I'll pay better attention next time I board one of those trains.
– abl
23 hours ago
1
It seems rather counterintuitive to me for priority seats to be foldable in order to accommodate mobility devices (and indeed this is not something that I’ve ever noticed in the U.K.): what if an infirm person were to occupy such a seat, and then a wheelchair user subsequently boards? The infirm person would really have to vacate the seat, and seek to find another. Surely better that the foldable seats be occupied by able-bodied people?
– eggyal
20 hours ago
1
Your point about more room isn't just about guide dogs, but walking aids, or simply more space to get in and out rather than having to twist and bend at the same time. The extra space is a major reason for designating specific seats. (I was going to add an answer to that effect, but you've mentioned it already)
– Chris H
15 hours ago
|
show 2 more comments
Those seats are there to ensure people who needs to seat will find an available seat.
Yes, people may give up their seat to people needing it, but it doesn’t always work in a real world for multiple reasons :
- It is not always obvious when people need them (one may not look that old but have trouble standing, one may be pregnant without showing much, one may have a hidden medical condition, etc)
- One may not dare to offer its seat when in doubt for fear of offending ("I'm not that old thank you!", "No I'm not pregnant thank you!")
- One in need may not always ask (they don’t want to disturb or they don’t know, maybe you need it too)
- Even when asked, some may not give their seat arguing there's not obligated to
To address all those issues, designated seat reserved to people in need exists and they always should be given up when needed but ideally and depending on culture, they should be left empty.
Then you may think « that’s a lot of wasted seat », well yes and no. The thing is that the number of priority seats usually match the proportion of people needing them.
Example : Let's assume that 5% of the population need to be seated (elderly, disabled, pregnant women, etc.). If a transport has a standard capacity of 100 people (30 seated, 70 standing), there may be 6 priority seats. This is 20% of the available seats but only 6% of the capacity. They won’t be empty, they will be just as filled as the whole carriage.
Then, if nobody uses the priority seat without needing them and the carriage is 30% full, there may be 26 people seated (24 on normal seat and 2 on priority seat), 4 people standing and 4 available priority seat. Now this is a waste of seat but is necessary to ensure that people needing them will find one available.
If you really want to seat in that scenario, you may use one of the priority seat with the following rule of thumb :
- Never use the last priority seat
- If you’re on a priority seat and there is no other one available, give up your seat even without being asked, someone in need may be silently waiting
New contributor
add a comment |
Certainly, any citizen of competent parentage should cheerfully give up his seat for a person in need. Meanwhile, in the real world...
It's a (planned) knock-on effect of ADA or similar laws
The gist of ADA etc. is that aside from anything else the law may require, providers must always "do what is easy".
The very picture postcard definition of "What is easy" is giving the seats nearest the door to the mobility-limited. This is a mandate, so it is required for staff to do this, and the mobility-limited or any ADA lawyer can raise all manner of hell if they don't.
No seat markings are required, so far. Staff must do this regardless. It's mandatory, not a maybe or a suggestion.
But try to explain that to the public
The driver can't really move the bus until the wobbly mobility-limited person is seated. However, she may collide with the manners-limited hoi polloi who frequent transit buses. If she can't get a seat easily, the driver has to intervene. The citizen may retort "But why should I give up my seat?" "Because ADA" will get a blank stare and a digging-in of heels.
So by adding the signs, it preloads the driver's argumemt. "Because you chose to sit in a seat in which those with disabilities get priority, and here's one." Problem solved.
Also: When the grumpy refuser boarded, that there were seats available in the back of the bus. Now, there are not. The refuser could argue "therefore, you should bump one the latecomers in the back so I can have their seat, since I boarded before them". This too gets defused by the sign. "Your eyes were wide open; you knew when you sat down that these seats came with risk of eviction."
What I've said so far applies to all vehicles, even magic vehicles with equal access to every seat (which I don't quite believe).
Indeed, this "priority seating" signage assists with the endless challenge faced by every bus operator: To get people to stop millimg around the doors and move to the back of the bus.
Seats are not equal
On buses I ride, about 30-40% of the seats on the bus have these "priority seating" signs. That's more than you are likely to have mobility impaired people.
In many cases, the seats aren't even slightly equal: it is a kneeling bus, which can deflate its airbag suspension to put its front entrance about 8" off the ground. That is a great aid to the mobility impaired, and it makes the frontmost seats most desirable. This also allows them to board/leave in view of the driver so he can observe or assist.
Furthermore, some seats (4-6) typically "flip up" to create an open space where there are wheelchair tiedowns. Those are in specific locations, and absolutely, get those signs.
add a comment |
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As well as Johns-305's excellent answer there is another good reason for designating some seats as priority seats.
It enables the operators to enforce the 'give up your seat for someone who needs it' rule, without either having to make it a formal universal rule, or have the driver decide who has to give up their seat. It may seem like 'common sense' that people give up their sets to those who need it, but people don't always do the common sense thing.
Let's imagine a situation where there are no designated seats, the bus is full, and someone needing a seat for real, medical reason gets on. Nobody voluntarily gives up their seat. The person is left with either standing (which may be literally impossible for them) or asking a random person to give up their seat. It's possible that person might say "I don't want to, get that other person to give up their seat instead. They are younger/fitter/carrying less.". That person may think a third person is better able to stand. Now you've got an argument and no way of resolving it.
With a designated seat it's easy. The person needing the seat asks the one occupying the designated seat to give it up. They may grumble, but the sign is there, they knew they might have to do this when they sat in it. The driver can even enforce it without seeming arbitrary.
8
This is especially important if the argument for who should give up their seat is going to end up involving some other sort of power imbalance.
– R..
yesterday
5
Excellent answer & explanation, only thing I would add is that priority seats are often left empty slightly longer than normal seats (if a person can choose for a non-priority or a priority seat they will often choose the non-priority one), thus leaving priority seats near the entrance open.
– David Mulder
16 hours ago
Plus, priority seats rarely conflicts with wheelchair space, so if you need to kick someone from his seat to fold it and maneuver wheelchair, it won't be another disabled person.
– Mołot
14 hours ago
1
It also works the other way - if you're healthy but don't want to be asked to vacate your seat (eg. afraid of the social interaction or don't speak local language), you simply pass the priority one and keep standing. Designating priority seats is a win-win scenario.
– Agent_L
13 hours ago
8
Relevant source: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bystander_effect That's why in an emergency you don't ask "somebody call the ambulance", you pick one bystander and say "you call the ambulance". Designated seats are basically saying "you vacate the seat", thus removing diffusion of responsibility.
– Agent_L
13 hours ago
add a comment |
As well as Johns-305's excellent answer there is another good reason for designating some seats as priority seats.
It enables the operators to enforce the 'give up your seat for someone who needs it' rule, without either having to make it a formal universal rule, or have the driver decide who has to give up their seat. It may seem like 'common sense' that people give up their sets to those who need it, but people don't always do the common sense thing.
Let's imagine a situation where there are no designated seats, the bus is full, and someone needing a seat for real, medical reason gets on. Nobody voluntarily gives up their seat. The person is left with either standing (which may be literally impossible for them) or asking a random person to give up their seat. It's possible that person might say "I don't want to, get that other person to give up their seat instead. They are younger/fitter/carrying less.". That person may think a third person is better able to stand. Now you've got an argument and no way of resolving it.
With a designated seat it's easy. The person needing the seat asks the one occupying the designated seat to give it up. They may grumble, but the sign is there, they knew they might have to do this when they sat in it. The driver can even enforce it without seeming arbitrary.
8
This is especially important if the argument for who should give up their seat is going to end up involving some other sort of power imbalance.
– R..
yesterday
5
Excellent answer & explanation, only thing I would add is that priority seats are often left empty slightly longer than normal seats (if a person can choose for a non-priority or a priority seat they will often choose the non-priority one), thus leaving priority seats near the entrance open.
– David Mulder
16 hours ago
Plus, priority seats rarely conflicts with wheelchair space, so if you need to kick someone from his seat to fold it and maneuver wheelchair, it won't be another disabled person.
– Mołot
14 hours ago
1
It also works the other way - if you're healthy but don't want to be asked to vacate your seat (eg. afraid of the social interaction or don't speak local language), you simply pass the priority one and keep standing. Designating priority seats is a win-win scenario.
– Agent_L
13 hours ago
8
Relevant source: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bystander_effect That's why in an emergency you don't ask "somebody call the ambulance", you pick one bystander and say "you call the ambulance". Designated seats are basically saying "you vacate the seat", thus removing diffusion of responsibility.
– Agent_L
13 hours ago
add a comment |
As well as Johns-305's excellent answer there is another good reason for designating some seats as priority seats.
It enables the operators to enforce the 'give up your seat for someone who needs it' rule, without either having to make it a formal universal rule, or have the driver decide who has to give up their seat. It may seem like 'common sense' that people give up their sets to those who need it, but people don't always do the common sense thing.
Let's imagine a situation where there are no designated seats, the bus is full, and someone needing a seat for real, medical reason gets on. Nobody voluntarily gives up their seat. The person is left with either standing (which may be literally impossible for them) or asking a random person to give up their seat. It's possible that person might say "I don't want to, get that other person to give up their seat instead. They are younger/fitter/carrying less.". That person may think a third person is better able to stand. Now you've got an argument and no way of resolving it.
With a designated seat it's easy. The person needing the seat asks the one occupying the designated seat to give it up. They may grumble, but the sign is there, they knew they might have to do this when they sat in it. The driver can even enforce it without seeming arbitrary.
As well as Johns-305's excellent answer there is another good reason for designating some seats as priority seats.
It enables the operators to enforce the 'give up your seat for someone who needs it' rule, without either having to make it a formal universal rule, or have the driver decide who has to give up their seat. It may seem like 'common sense' that people give up their sets to those who need it, but people don't always do the common sense thing.
Let's imagine a situation where there are no designated seats, the bus is full, and someone needing a seat for real, medical reason gets on. Nobody voluntarily gives up their seat. The person is left with either standing (which may be literally impossible for them) or asking a random person to give up their seat. It's possible that person might say "I don't want to, get that other person to give up their seat instead. They are younger/fitter/carrying less.". That person may think a third person is better able to stand. Now you've got an argument and no way of resolving it.
With a designated seat it's easy. The person needing the seat asks the one occupying the designated seat to give it up. They may grumble, but the sign is there, they knew they might have to do this when they sat in it. The driver can even enforce it without seeming arbitrary.
answered yesterday
DJClayworth
32.2k582120
32.2k582120
8
This is especially important if the argument for who should give up their seat is going to end up involving some other sort of power imbalance.
– R..
yesterday
5
Excellent answer & explanation, only thing I would add is that priority seats are often left empty slightly longer than normal seats (if a person can choose for a non-priority or a priority seat they will often choose the non-priority one), thus leaving priority seats near the entrance open.
– David Mulder
16 hours ago
Plus, priority seats rarely conflicts with wheelchair space, so if you need to kick someone from his seat to fold it and maneuver wheelchair, it won't be another disabled person.
– Mołot
14 hours ago
1
It also works the other way - if you're healthy but don't want to be asked to vacate your seat (eg. afraid of the social interaction or don't speak local language), you simply pass the priority one and keep standing. Designating priority seats is a win-win scenario.
– Agent_L
13 hours ago
8
Relevant source: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bystander_effect That's why in an emergency you don't ask "somebody call the ambulance", you pick one bystander and say "you call the ambulance". Designated seats are basically saying "you vacate the seat", thus removing diffusion of responsibility.
– Agent_L
13 hours ago
add a comment |
8
This is especially important if the argument for who should give up their seat is going to end up involving some other sort of power imbalance.
– R..
yesterday
5
Excellent answer & explanation, only thing I would add is that priority seats are often left empty slightly longer than normal seats (if a person can choose for a non-priority or a priority seat they will often choose the non-priority one), thus leaving priority seats near the entrance open.
– David Mulder
16 hours ago
Plus, priority seats rarely conflicts with wheelchair space, so if you need to kick someone from his seat to fold it and maneuver wheelchair, it won't be another disabled person.
– Mołot
14 hours ago
1
It also works the other way - if you're healthy but don't want to be asked to vacate your seat (eg. afraid of the social interaction or don't speak local language), you simply pass the priority one and keep standing. Designating priority seats is a win-win scenario.
– Agent_L
13 hours ago
8
Relevant source: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bystander_effect That's why in an emergency you don't ask "somebody call the ambulance", you pick one bystander and say "you call the ambulance". Designated seats are basically saying "you vacate the seat", thus removing diffusion of responsibility.
– Agent_L
13 hours ago
8
8
This is especially important if the argument for who should give up their seat is going to end up involving some other sort of power imbalance.
– R..
yesterday
This is especially important if the argument for who should give up their seat is going to end up involving some other sort of power imbalance.
– R..
yesterday
5
5
Excellent answer & explanation, only thing I would add is that priority seats are often left empty slightly longer than normal seats (if a person can choose for a non-priority or a priority seat they will often choose the non-priority one), thus leaving priority seats near the entrance open.
– David Mulder
16 hours ago
Excellent answer & explanation, only thing I would add is that priority seats are often left empty slightly longer than normal seats (if a person can choose for a non-priority or a priority seat they will often choose the non-priority one), thus leaving priority seats near the entrance open.
– David Mulder
16 hours ago
Plus, priority seats rarely conflicts with wheelchair space, so if you need to kick someone from his seat to fold it and maneuver wheelchair, it won't be another disabled person.
– Mołot
14 hours ago
Plus, priority seats rarely conflicts with wheelchair space, so if you need to kick someone from his seat to fold it and maneuver wheelchair, it won't be another disabled person.
– Mołot
14 hours ago
1
1
It also works the other way - if you're healthy but don't want to be asked to vacate your seat (eg. afraid of the social interaction or don't speak local language), you simply pass the priority one and keep standing. Designating priority seats is a win-win scenario.
– Agent_L
13 hours ago
It also works the other way - if you're healthy but don't want to be asked to vacate your seat (eg. afraid of the social interaction or don't speak local language), you simply pass the priority one and keep standing. Designating priority seats is a win-win scenario.
– Agent_L
13 hours ago
8
8
Relevant source: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bystander_effect That's why in an emergency you don't ask "somebody call the ambulance", you pick one bystander and say "you call the ambulance". Designated seats are basically saying "you vacate the seat", thus removing diffusion of responsibility.
– Agent_L
13 hours ago
Relevant source: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bystander_effect That's why in an emergency you don't ask "somebody call the ambulance", you pick one bystander and say "you call the ambulance". Designated seats are basically saying "you vacate the seat", thus removing diffusion of responsibility.
– Agent_L
13 hours ago
add a comment |
Here are some reasons for this. To be clear, the exact reasoning would vary by operator or agency.
- The Priority seats are often next to the door allowing easier access when boarding, exiting, and in case of emergency.
- The Priority seats are often dual-purpose and can be folded/stowed to accommodate mobility devices.
- Designating seats as Priority is an extra push to make them available. Yes, you should relinquish any seat to a rider with a broken leg, but you really, really should relinquish the designated seats.
- Accessibility is a major issue in developed nations. Having designated Priority seats is beneficial operationally (as above) and in public opinion for the operator.
6
An addition to bullet #3: designating a specific seat helps to avoid the bystander effect: if you take the priority seat, you are the one who should give your place up first.
– molnarm
17 hours ago
Also an addition to the #1: These seats are almost always at the same elevation as the bus "floor", so that you don't have to climb up or down on the bus. Especially important for elderly with weak knees and pregnant women. (in comparison, most other seats on our buses in Turkey are elevated for some reason or another, usually due to technical limitations of the bus design)
– John Hamilton
16 hours ago
add a comment |
Here are some reasons for this. To be clear, the exact reasoning would vary by operator or agency.
- The Priority seats are often next to the door allowing easier access when boarding, exiting, and in case of emergency.
- The Priority seats are often dual-purpose and can be folded/stowed to accommodate mobility devices.
- Designating seats as Priority is an extra push to make them available. Yes, you should relinquish any seat to a rider with a broken leg, but you really, really should relinquish the designated seats.
- Accessibility is a major issue in developed nations. Having designated Priority seats is beneficial operationally (as above) and in public opinion for the operator.
6
An addition to bullet #3: designating a specific seat helps to avoid the bystander effect: if you take the priority seat, you are the one who should give your place up first.
– molnarm
17 hours ago
Also an addition to the #1: These seats are almost always at the same elevation as the bus "floor", so that you don't have to climb up or down on the bus. Especially important for elderly with weak knees and pregnant women. (in comparison, most other seats on our buses in Turkey are elevated for some reason or another, usually due to technical limitations of the bus design)
– John Hamilton
16 hours ago
add a comment |
Here are some reasons for this. To be clear, the exact reasoning would vary by operator or agency.
- The Priority seats are often next to the door allowing easier access when boarding, exiting, and in case of emergency.
- The Priority seats are often dual-purpose and can be folded/stowed to accommodate mobility devices.
- Designating seats as Priority is an extra push to make them available. Yes, you should relinquish any seat to a rider with a broken leg, but you really, really should relinquish the designated seats.
- Accessibility is a major issue in developed nations. Having designated Priority seats is beneficial operationally (as above) and in public opinion for the operator.
Here are some reasons for this. To be clear, the exact reasoning would vary by operator or agency.
- The Priority seats are often next to the door allowing easier access when boarding, exiting, and in case of emergency.
- The Priority seats are often dual-purpose and can be folded/stowed to accommodate mobility devices.
- Designating seats as Priority is an extra push to make them available. Yes, you should relinquish any seat to a rider with a broken leg, but you really, really should relinquish the designated seats.
- Accessibility is a major issue in developed nations. Having designated Priority seats is beneficial operationally (as above) and in public opinion for the operator.
edited 2 hours ago
kasperd
181129
181129
answered yesterday
Johns-305
28.5k15797
28.5k15797
6
An addition to bullet #3: designating a specific seat helps to avoid the bystander effect: if you take the priority seat, you are the one who should give your place up first.
– molnarm
17 hours ago
Also an addition to the #1: These seats are almost always at the same elevation as the bus "floor", so that you don't have to climb up or down on the bus. Especially important for elderly with weak knees and pregnant women. (in comparison, most other seats on our buses in Turkey are elevated for some reason or another, usually due to technical limitations of the bus design)
– John Hamilton
16 hours ago
add a comment |
6
An addition to bullet #3: designating a specific seat helps to avoid the bystander effect: if you take the priority seat, you are the one who should give your place up first.
– molnarm
17 hours ago
Also an addition to the #1: These seats are almost always at the same elevation as the bus "floor", so that you don't have to climb up or down on the bus. Especially important for elderly with weak knees and pregnant women. (in comparison, most other seats on our buses in Turkey are elevated for some reason or another, usually due to technical limitations of the bus design)
– John Hamilton
16 hours ago
6
6
An addition to bullet #3: designating a specific seat helps to avoid the bystander effect: if you take the priority seat, you are the one who should give your place up first.
– molnarm
17 hours ago
An addition to bullet #3: designating a specific seat helps to avoid the bystander effect: if you take the priority seat, you are the one who should give your place up first.
– molnarm
17 hours ago
Also an addition to the #1: These seats are almost always at the same elevation as the bus "floor", so that you don't have to climb up or down on the bus. Especially important for elderly with weak knees and pregnant women. (in comparison, most other seats on our buses in Turkey are elevated for some reason or another, usually due to technical limitations of the bus design)
– John Hamilton
16 hours ago
Also an addition to the #1: These seats are almost always at the same elevation as the bus "floor", so that you don't have to climb up or down on the bus. Especially important for elderly with weak knees and pregnant women. (in comparison, most other seats on our buses in Turkey are elevated for some reason or another, usually due to technical limitations of the bus design)
– John Hamilton
16 hours ago
add a comment |
The designated priority seats are "better" for people with various disabilities, in various different ways:
- As @Johns-305 points out, they can be folded to accommodate mobility devices.
- They are next to a door, so a person with a disability needn't go far.
- Guide dogs are often trained to guide a person to particular seats. Those seats might also have more room, to accommodate the dog.
- On a bus, the window seat isn't too accessible, nor is the seat that's on top of the wheel (and is a bit higher). Various seat configurations in buses exist, but in all cases not all seats are equally accessible. The designated-priority seats are the ones that are accessible.
Thus, a person taking a priority seat is aware that the seat he's taken is the one that would be needed by a person with a disability - another seat won't be an acceptable substitute.
And in the same vein, requiring trains and buses to have designated seats implies requiring seats that would fit the various needs of people with various disabilities. "Any seat" just won't do.
1
That makes total sense in those cases where it's true. I asked the question because, if I recall correctly, I've seen quite a few trains where the reserved seats don't appear to be more convenient in any respect. Often the seats are in groups of four, two facing two, and in every carriage a seemingly random group of four is designated priority seating. In the infrequent case where there are four people with reduced mobility, it seems it would be actually a bad idea to seat them together, since the ones on the aisle have to get up to allow the ones on the window to take the seat or hop off.
– abl
yesterday
3
@abl Can you say where you've seen this "random" placement of priority seats? For instance, on all the UK trains I've seen, they've been near the doors (or, possibly, the toilets).
– TripeHound
yesterday
@TripeHound In Barcelona and surroundings. I can't say for sure that the placement is really random, but I remember wondering why those were chosen as priority seats and not finding an obvious reason. I'll pay better attention next time I board one of those trains.
– abl
23 hours ago
1
It seems rather counterintuitive to me for priority seats to be foldable in order to accommodate mobility devices (and indeed this is not something that I’ve ever noticed in the U.K.): what if an infirm person were to occupy such a seat, and then a wheelchair user subsequently boards? The infirm person would really have to vacate the seat, and seek to find another. Surely better that the foldable seats be occupied by able-bodied people?
– eggyal
20 hours ago
1
Your point about more room isn't just about guide dogs, but walking aids, or simply more space to get in and out rather than having to twist and bend at the same time. The extra space is a major reason for designating specific seats. (I was going to add an answer to that effect, but you've mentioned it already)
– Chris H
15 hours ago
|
show 2 more comments
The designated priority seats are "better" for people with various disabilities, in various different ways:
- As @Johns-305 points out, they can be folded to accommodate mobility devices.
- They are next to a door, so a person with a disability needn't go far.
- Guide dogs are often trained to guide a person to particular seats. Those seats might also have more room, to accommodate the dog.
- On a bus, the window seat isn't too accessible, nor is the seat that's on top of the wheel (and is a bit higher). Various seat configurations in buses exist, but in all cases not all seats are equally accessible. The designated-priority seats are the ones that are accessible.
Thus, a person taking a priority seat is aware that the seat he's taken is the one that would be needed by a person with a disability - another seat won't be an acceptable substitute.
And in the same vein, requiring trains and buses to have designated seats implies requiring seats that would fit the various needs of people with various disabilities. "Any seat" just won't do.
1
That makes total sense in those cases where it's true. I asked the question because, if I recall correctly, I've seen quite a few trains where the reserved seats don't appear to be more convenient in any respect. Often the seats are in groups of four, two facing two, and in every carriage a seemingly random group of four is designated priority seating. In the infrequent case where there are four people with reduced mobility, it seems it would be actually a bad idea to seat them together, since the ones on the aisle have to get up to allow the ones on the window to take the seat or hop off.
– abl
yesterday
3
@abl Can you say where you've seen this "random" placement of priority seats? For instance, on all the UK trains I've seen, they've been near the doors (or, possibly, the toilets).
– TripeHound
yesterday
@TripeHound In Barcelona and surroundings. I can't say for sure that the placement is really random, but I remember wondering why those were chosen as priority seats and not finding an obvious reason. I'll pay better attention next time I board one of those trains.
– abl
23 hours ago
1
It seems rather counterintuitive to me for priority seats to be foldable in order to accommodate mobility devices (and indeed this is not something that I’ve ever noticed in the U.K.): what if an infirm person were to occupy such a seat, and then a wheelchair user subsequently boards? The infirm person would really have to vacate the seat, and seek to find another. Surely better that the foldable seats be occupied by able-bodied people?
– eggyal
20 hours ago
1
Your point about more room isn't just about guide dogs, but walking aids, or simply more space to get in and out rather than having to twist and bend at the same time. The extra space is a major reason for designating specific seats. (I was going to add an answer to that effect, but you've mentioned it already)
– Chris H
15 hours ago
|
show 2 more comments
The designated priority seats are "better" for people with various disabilities, in various different ways:
- As @Johns-305 points out, they can be folded to accommodate mobility devices.
- They are next to a door, so a person with a disability needn't go far.
- Guide dogs are often trained to guide a person to particular seats. Those seats might also have more room, to accommodate the dog.
- On a bus, the window seat isn't too accessible, nor is the seat that's on top of the wheel (and is a bit higher). Various seat configurations in buses exist, but in all cases not all seats are equally accessible. The designated-priority seats are the ones that are accessible.
Thus, a person taking a priority seat is aware that the seat he's taken is the one that would be needed by a person with a disability - another seat won't be an acceptable substitute.
And in the same vein, requiring trains and buses to have designated seats implies requiring seats that would fit the various needs of people with various disabilities. "Any seat" just won't do.
The designated priority seats are "better" for people with various disabilities, in various different ways:
- As @Johns-305 points out, they can be folded to accommodate mobility devices.
- They are next to a door, so a person with a disability needn't go far.
- Guide dogs are often trained to guide a person to particular seats. Those seats might also have more room, to accommodate the dog.
- On a bus, the window seat isn't too accessible, nor is the seat that's on top of the wheel (and is a bit higher). Various seat configurations in buses exist, but in all cases not all seats are equally accessible. The designated-priority seats are the ones that are accessible.
Thus, a person taking a priority seat is aware that the seat he's taken is the one that would be needed by a person with a disability - another seat won't be an acceptable substitute.
And in the same vein, requiring trains and buses to have designated seats implies requiring seats that would fit the various needs of people with various disabilities. "Any seat" just won't do.
answered yesterday
Galastel
428110
428110
1
That makes total sense in those cases where it's true. I asked the question because, if I recall correctly, I've seen quite a few trains where the reserved seats don't appear to be more convenient in any respect. Often the seats are in groups of four, two facing two, and in every carriage a seemingly random group of four is designated priority seating. In the infrequent case where there are four people with reduced mobility, it seems it would be actually a bad idea to seat them together, since the ones on the aisle have to get up to allow the ones on the window to take the seat or hop off.
– abl
yesterday
3
@abl Can you say where you've seen this "random" placement of priority seats? For instance, on all the UK trains I've seen, they've been near the doors (or, possibly, the toilets).
– TripeHound
yesterday
@TripeHound In Barcelona and surroundings. I can't say for sure that the placement is really random, but I remember wondering why those were chosen as priority seats and not finding an obvious reason. I'll pay better attention next time I board one of those trains.
– abl
23 hours ago
1
It seems rather counterintuitive to me for priority seats to be foldable in order to accommodate mobility devices (and indeed this is not something that I’ve ever noticed in the U.K.): what if an infirm person were to occupy such a seat, and then a wheelchair user subsequently boards? The infirm person would really have to vacate the seat, and seek to find another. Surely better that the foldable seats be occupied by able-bodied people?
– eggyal
20 hours ago
1
Your point about more room isn't just about guide dogs, but walking aids, or simply more space to get in and out rather than having to twist and bend at the same time. The extra space is a major reason for designating specific seats. (I was going to add an answer to that effect, but you've mentioned it already)
– Chris H
15 hours ago
|
show 2 more comments
1
That makes total sense in those cases where it's true. I asked the question because, if I recall correctly, I've seen quite a few trains where the reserved seats don't appear to be more convenient in any respect. Often the seats are in groups of four, two facing two, and in every carriage a seemingly random group of four is designated priority seating. In the infrequent case where there are four people with reduced mobility, it seems it would be actually a bad idea to seat them together, since the ones on the aisle have to get up to allow the ones on the window to take the seat or hop off.
– abl
yesterday
3
@abl Can you say where you've seen this "random" placement of priority seats? For instance, on all the UK trains I've seen, they've been near the doors (or, possibly, the toilets).
– TripeHound
yesterday
@TripeHound In Barcelona and surroundings. I can't say for sure that the placement is really random, but I remember wondering why those were chosen as priority seats and not finding an obvious reason. I'll pay better attention next time I board one of those trains.
– abl
23 hours ago
1
It seems rather counterintuitive to me for priority seats to be foldable in order to accommodate mobility devices (and indeed this is not something that I’ve ever noticed in the U.K.): what if an infirm person were to occupy such a seat, and then a wheelchair user subsequently boards? The infirm person would really have to vacate the seat, and seek to find another. Surely better that the foldable seats be occupied by able-bodied people?
– eggyal
20 hours ago
1
Your point about more room isn't just about guide dogs, but walking aids, or simply more space to get in and out rather than having to twist and bend at the same time. The extra space is a major reason for designating specific seats. (I was going to add an answer to that effect, but you've mentioned it already)
– Chris H
15 hours ago
1
1
That makes total sense in those cases where it's true. I asked the question because, if I recall correctly, I've seen quite a few trains where the reserved seats don't appear to be more convenient in any respect. Often the seats are in groups of four, two facing two, and in every carriage a seemingly random group of four is designated priority seating. In the infrequent case where there are four people with reduced mobility, it seems it would be actually a bad idea to seat them together, since the ones on the aisle have to get up to allow the ones on the window to take the seat or hop off.
– abl
yesterday
That makes total sense in those cases where it's true. I asked the question because, if I recall correctly, I've seen quite a few trains where the reserved seats don't appear to be more convenient in any respect. Often the seats are in groups of four, two facing two, and in every carriage a seemingly random group of four is designated priority seating. In the infrequent case where there are four people with reduced mobility, it seems it would be actually a bad idea to seat them together, since the ones on the aisle have to get up to allow the ones on the window to take the seat or hop off.
– abl
yesterday
3
3
@abl Can you say where you've seen this "random" placement of priority seats? For instance, on all the UK trains I've seen, they've been near the doors (or, possibly, the toilets).
– TripeHound
yesterday
@abl Can you say where you've seen this "random" placement of priority seats? For instance, on all the UK trains I've seen, they've been near the doors (or, possibly, the toilets).
– TripeHound
yesterday
@TripeHound In Barcelona and surroundings. I can't say for sure that the placement is really random, but I remember wondering why those were chosen as priority seats and not finding an obvious reason. I'll pay better attention next time I board one of those trains.
– abl
23 hours ago
@TripeHound In Barcelona and surroundings. I can't say for sure that the placement is really random, but I remember wondering why those were chosen as priority seats and not finding an obvious reason. I'll pay better attention next time I board one of those trains.
– abl
23 hours ago
1
1
It seems rather counterintuitive to me for priority seats to be foldable in order to accommodate mobility devices (and indeed this is not something that I’ve ever noticed in the U.K.): what if an infirm person were to occupy such a seat, and then a wheelchair user subsequently boards? The infirm person would really have to vacate the seat, and seek to find another. Surely better that the foldable seats be occupied by able-bodied people?
– eggyal
20 hours ago
It seems rather counterintuitive to me for priority seats to be foldable in order to accommodate mobility devices (and indeed this is not something that I’ve ever noticed in the U.K.): what if an infirm person were to occupy such a seat, and then a wheelchair user subsequently boards? The infirm person would really have to vacate the seat, and seek to find another. Surely better that the foldable seats be occupied by able-bodied people?
– eggyal
20 hours ago
1
1
Your point about more room isn't just about guide dogs, but walking aids, or simply more space to get in and out rather than having to twist and bend at the same time. The extra space is a major reason for designating specific seats. (I was going to add an answer to that effect, but you've mentioned it already)
– Chris H
15 hours ago
Your point about more room isn't just about guide dogs, but walking aids, or simply more space to get in and out rather than having to twist and bend at the same time. The extra space is a major reason for designating specific seats. (I was going to add an answer to that effect, but you've mentioned it already)
– Chris H
15 hours ago
|
show 2 more comments
Those seats are there to ensure people who needs to seat will find an available seat.
Yes, people may give up their seat to people needing it, but it doesn’t always work in a real world for multiple reasons :
- It is not always obvious when people need them (one may not look that old but have trouble standing, one may be pregnant without showing much, one may have a hidden medical condition, etc)
- One may not dare to offer its seat when in doubt for fear of offending ("I'm not that old thank you!", "No I'm not pregnant thank you!")
- One in need may not always ask (they don’t want to disturb or they don’t know, maybe you need it too)
- Even when asked, some may not give their seat arguing there's not obligated to
To address all those issues, designated seat reserved to people in need exists and they always should be given up when needed but ideally and depending on culture, they should be left empty.
Then you may think « that’s a lot of wasted seat », well yes and no. The thing is that the number of priority seats usually match the proportion of people needing them.
Example : Let's assume that 5% of the population need to be seated (elderly, disabled, pregnant women, etc.). If a transport has a standard capacity of 100 people (30 seated, 70 standing), there may be 6 priority seats. This is 20% of the available seats but only 6% of the capacity. They won’t be empty, they will be just as filled as the whole carriage.
Then, if nobody uses the priority seat without needing them and the carriage is 30% full, there may be 26 people seated (24 on normal seat and 2 on priority seat), 4 people standing and 4 available priority seat. Now this is a waste of seat but is necessary to ensure that people needing them will find one available.
If you really want to seat in that scenario, you may use one of the priority seat with the following rule of thumb :
- Never use the last priority seat
- If you’re on a priority seat and there is no other one available, give up your seat even without being asked, someone in need may be silently waiting
New contributor
add a comment |
Those seats are there to ensure people who needs to seat will find an available seat.
Yes, people may give up their seat to people needing it, but it doesn’t always work in a real world for multiple reasons :
- It is not always obvious when people need them (one may not look that old but have trouble standing, one may be pregnant without showing much, one may have a hidden medical condition, etc)
- One may not dare to offer its seat when in doubt for fear of offending ("I'm not that old thank you!", "No I'm not pregnant thank you!")
- One in need may not always ask (they don’t want to disturb or they don’t know, maybe you need it too)
- Even when asked, some may not give their seat arguing there's not obligated to
To address all those issues, designated seat reserved to people in need exists and they always should be given up when needed but ideally and depending on culture, they should be left empty.
Then you may think « that’s a lot of wasted seat », well yes and no. The thing is that the number of priority seats usually match the proportion of people needing them.
Example : Let's assume that 5% of the population need to be seated (elderly, disabled, pregnant women, etc.). If a transport has a standard capacity of 100 people (30 seated, 70 standing), there may be 6 priority seats. This is 20% of the available seats but only 6% of the capacity. They won’t be empty, they will be just as filled as the whole carriage.
Then, if nobody uses the priority seat without needing them and the carriage is 30% full, there may be 26 people seated (24 on normal seat and 2 on priority seat), 4 people standing and 4 available priority seat. Now this is a waste of seat but is necessary to ensure that people needing them will find one available.
If you really want to seat in that scenario, you may use one of the priority seat with the following rule of thumb :
- Never use the last priority seat
- If you’re on a priority seat and there is no other one available, give up your seat even without being asked, someone in need may be silently waiting
New contributor
add a comment |
Those seats are there to ensure people who needs to seat will find an available seat.
Yes, people may give up their seat to people needing it, but it doesn’t always work in a real world for multiple reasons :
- It is not always obvious when people need them (one may not look that old but have trouble standing, one may be pregnant without showing much, one may have a hidden medical condition, etc)
- One may not dare to offer its seat when in doubt for fear of offending ("I'm not that old thank you!", "No I'm not pregnant thank you!")
- One in need may not always ask (they don’t want to disturb or they don’t know, maybe you need it too)
- Even when asked, some may not give their seat arguing there's not obligated to
To address all those issues, designated seat reserved to people in need exists and they always should be given up when needed but ideally and depending on culture, they should be left empty.
Then you may think « that’s a lot of wasted seat », well yes and no. The thing is that the number of priority seats usually match the proportion of people needing them.
Example : Let's assume that 5% of the population need to be seated (elderly, disabled, pregnant women, etc.). If a transport has a standard capacity of 100 people (30 seated, 70 standing), there may be 6 priority seats. This is 20% of the available seats but only 6% of the capacity. They won’t be empty, they will be just as filled as the whole carriage.
Then, if nobody uses the priority seat without needing them and the carriage is 30% full, there may be 26 people seated (24 on normal seat and 2 on priority seat), 4 people standing and 4 available priority seat. Now this is a waste of seat but is necessary to ensure that people needing them will find one available.
If you really want to seat in that scenario, you may use one of the priority seat with the following rule of thumb :
- Never use the last priority seat
- If you’re on a priority seat and there is no other one available, give up your seat even without being asked, someone in need may be silently waiting
New contributor
Those seats are there to ensure people who needs to seat will find an available seat.
Yes, people may give up their seat to people needing it, but it doesn’t always work in a real world for multiple reasons :
- It is not always obvious when people need them (one may not look that old but have trouble standing, one may be pregnant without showing much, one may have a hidden medical condition, etc)
- One may not dare to offer its seat when in doubt for fear of offending ("I'm not that old thank you!", "No I'm not pregnant thank you!")
- One in need may not always ask (they don’t want to disturb or they don’t know, maybe you need it too)
- Even when asked, some may not give their seat arguing there's not obligated to
To address all those issues, designated seat reserved to people in need exists and they always should be given up when needed but ideally and depending on culture, they should be left empty.
Then you may think « that’s a lot of wasted seat », well yes and no. The thing is that the number of priority seats usually match the proportion of people needing them.
Example : Let's assume that 5% of the population need to be seated (elderly, disabled, pregnant women, etc.). If a transport has a standard capacity of 100 people (30 seated, 70 standing), there may be 6 priority seats. This is 20% of the available seats but only 6% of the capacity. They won’t be empty, they will be just as filled as the whole carriage.
Then, if nobody uses the priority seat without needing them and the carriage is 30% full, there may be 26 people seated (24 on normal seat and 2 on priority seat), 4 people standing and 4 available priority seat. Now this is a waste of seat but is necessary to ensure that people needing them will find one available.
If you really want to seat in that scenario, you may use one of the priority seat with the following rule of thumb :
- Never use the last priority seat
- If you’re on a priority seat and there is no other one available, give up your seat even without being asked, someone in need may be silently waiting
New contributor
edited 12 hours ago
New contributor
answered 14 hours ago
zakinster
1256
1256
New contributor
New contributor
add a comment |
add a comment |
Certainly, any citizen of competent parentage should cheerfully give up his seat for a person in need. Meanwhile, in the real world...
It's a (planned) knock-on effect of ADA or similar laws
The gist of ADA etc. is that aside from anything else the law may require, providers must always "do what is easy".
The very picture postcard definition of "What is easy" is giving the seats nearest the door to the mobility-limited. This is a mandate, so it is required for staff to do this, and the mobility-limited or any ADA lawyer can raise all manner of hell if they don't.
No seat markings are required, so far. Staff must do this regardless. It's mandatory, not a maybe or a suggestion.
But try to explain that to the public
The driver can't really move the bus until the wobbly mobility-limited person is seated. However, she may collide with the manners-limited hoi polloi who frequent transit buses. If she can't get a seat easily, the driver has to intervene. The citizen may retort "But why should I give up my seat?" "Because ADA" will get a blank stare and a digging-in of heels.
So by adding the signs, it preloads the driver's argumemt. "Because you chose to sit in a seat in which those with disabilities get priority, and here's one." Problem solved.
Also: When the grumpy refuser boarded, that there were seats available in the back of the bus. Now, there are not. The refuser could argue "therefore, you should bump one the latecomers in the back so I can have their seat, since I boarded before them". This too gets defused by the sign. "Your eyes were wide open; you knew when you sat down that these seats came with risk of eviction."
What I've said so far applies to all vehicles, even magic vehicles with equal access to every seat (which I don't quite believe).
Indeed, this "priority seating" signage assists with the endless challenge faced by every bus operator: To get people to stop millimg around the doors and move to the back of the bus.
Seats are not equal
On buses I ride, about 30-40% of the seats on the bus have these "priority seating" signs. That's more than you are likely to have mobility impaired people.
In many cases, the seats aren't even slightly equal: it is a kneeling bus, which can deflate its airbag suspension to put its front entrance about 8" off the ground. That is a great aid to the mobility impaired, and it makes the frontmost seats most desirable. This also allows them to board/leave in view of the driver so he can observe or assist.
Furthermore, some seats (4-6) typically "flip up" to create an open space where there are wheelchair tiedowns. Those are in specific locations, and absolutely, get those signs.
add a comment |
Certainly, any citizen of competent parentage should cheerfully give up his seat for a person in need. Meanwhile, in the real world...
It's a (planned) knock-on effect of ADA or similar laws
The gist of ADA etc. is that aside from anything else the law may require, providers must always "do what is easy".
The very picture postcard definition of "What is easy" is giving the seats nearest the door to the mobility-limited. This is a mandate, so it is required for staff to do this, and the mobility-limited or any ADA lawyer can raise all manner of hell if they don't.
No seat markings are required, so far. Staff must do this regardless. It's mandatory, not a maybe or a suggestion.
But try to explain that to the public
The driver can't really move the bus until the wobbly mobility-limited person is seated. However, she may collide with the manners-limited hoi polloi who frequent transit buses. If she can't get a seat easily, the driver has to intervene. The citizen may retort "But why should I give up my seat?" "Because ADA" will get a blank stare and a digging-in of heels.
So by adding the signs, it preloads the driver's argumemt. "Because you chose to sit in a seat in which those with disabilities get priority, and here's one." Problem solved.
Also: When the grumpy refuser boarded, that there were seats available in the back of the bus. Now, there are not. The refuser could argue "therefore, you should bump one the latecomers in the back so I can have their seat, since I boarded before them". This too gets defused by the sign. "Your eyes were wide open; you knew when you sat down that these seats came with risk of eviction."
What I've said so far applies to all vehicles, even magic vehicles with equal access to every seat (which I don't quite believe).
Indeed, this "priority seating" signage assists with the endless challenge faced by every bus operator: To get people to stop millimg around the doors and move to the back of the bus.
Seats are not equal
On buses I ride, about 30-40% of the seats on the bus have these "priority seating" signs. That's more than you are likely to have mobility impaired people.
In many cases, the seats aren't even slightly equal: it is a kneeling bus, which can deflate its airbag suspension to put its front entrance about 8" off the ground. That is a great aid to the mobility impaired, and it makes the frontmost seats most desirable. This also allows them to board/leave in view of the driver so he can observe or assist.
Furthermore, some seats (4-6) typically "flip up" to create an open space where there are wheelchair tiedowns. Those are in specific locations, and absolutely, get those signs.
add a comment |
Certainly, any citizen of competent parentage should cheerfully give up his seat for a person in need. Meanwhile, in the real world...
It's a (planned) knock-on effect of ADA or similar laws
The gist of ADA etc. is that aside from anything else the law may require, providers must always "do what is easy".
The very picture postcard definition of "What is easy" is giving the seats nearest the door to the mobility-limited. This is a mandate, so it is required for staff to do this, and the mobility-limited or any ADA lawyer can raise all manner of hell if they don't.
No seat markings are required, so far. Staff must do this regardless. It's mandatory, not a maybe or a suggestion.
But try to explain that to the public
The driver can't really move the bus until the wobbly mobility-limited person is seated. However, she may collide with the manners-limited hoi polloi who frequent transit buses. If she can't get a seat easily, the driver has to intervene. The citizen may retort "But why should I give up my seat?" "Because ADA" will get a blank stare and a digging-in of heels.
So by adding the signs, it preloads the driver's argumemt. "Because you chose to sit in a seat in which those with disabilities get priority, and here's one." Problem solved.
Also: When the grumpy refuser boarded, that there were seats available in the back of the bus. Now, there are not. The refuser could argue "therefore, you should bump one the latecomers in the back so I can have their seat, since I boarded before them". This too gets defused by the sign. "Your eyes were wide open; you knew when you sat down that these seats came with risk of eviction."
What I've said so far applies to all vehicles, even magic vehicles with equal access to every seat (which I don't quite believe).
Indeed, this "priority seating" signage assists with the endless challenge faced by every bus operator: To get people to stop millimg around the doors and move to the back of the bus.
Seats are not equal
On buses I ride, about 30-40% of the seats on the bus have these "priority seating" signs. That's more than you are likely to have mobility impaired people.
In many cases, the seats aren't even slightly equal: it is a kneeling bus, which can deflate its airbag suspension to put its front entrance about 8" off the ground. That is a great aid to the mobility impaired, and it makes the frontmost seats most desirable. This also allows them to board/leave in view of the driver so he can observe or assist.
Furthermore, some seats (4-6) typically "flip up" to create an open space where there are wheelchair tiedowns. Those are in specific locations, and absolutely, get those signs.
Certainly, any citizen of competent parentage should cheerfully give up his seat for a person in need. Meanwhile, in the real world...
It's a (planned) knock-on effect of ADA or similar laws
The gist of ADA etc. is that aside from anything else the law may require, providers must always "do what is easy".
The very picture postcard definition of "What is easy" is giving the seats nearest the door to the mobility-limited. This is a mandate, so it is required for staff to do this, and the mobility-limited or any ADA lawyer can raise all manner of hell if they don't.
No seat markings are required, so far. Staff must do this regardless. It's mandatory, not a maybe or a suggestion.
But try to explain that to the public
The driver can't really move the bus until the wobbly mobility-limited person is seated. However, she may collide with the manners-limited hoi polloi who frequent transit buses. If she can't get a seat easily, the driver has to intervene. The citizen may retort "But why should I give up my seat?" "Because ADA" will get a blank stare and a digging-in of heels.
So by adding the signs, it preloads the driver's argumemt. "Because you chose to sit in a seat in which those with disabilities get priority, and here's one." Problem solved.
Also: When the grumpy refuser boarded, that there were seats available in the back of the bus. Now, there are not. The refuser could argue "therefore, you should bump one the latecomers in the back so I can have their seat, since I boarded before them". This too gets defused by the sign. "Your eyes were wide open; you knew when you sat down that these seats came with risk of eviction."
What I've said so far applies to all vehicles, even magic vehicles with equal access to every seat (which I don't quite believe).
Indeed, this "priority seating" signage assists with the endless challenge faced by every bus operator: To get people to stop millimg around the doors and move to the back of the bus.
Seats are not equal
On buses I ride, about 30-40% of the seats on the bus have these "priority seating" signs. That's more than you are likely to have mobility impaired people.
In many cases, the seats aren't even slightly equal: it is a kneeling bus, which can deflate its airbag suspension to put its front entrance about 8" off the ground. That is a great aid to the mobility impaired, and it makes the frontmost seats most desirable. This also allows them to board/leave in view of the driver so he can observe or assist.
Furthermore, some seats (4-6) typically "flip up" to create an open space where there are wheelchair tiedowns. Those are in specific locations, and absolutely, get those signs.
edited 1 hour ago
answered 2 hours ago
Harper
9,56931948
9,56931948
add a comment |
add a comment |
abl is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.
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14
@fkraiem If you think that the reason some seats are marked as priority is that whoever took that decision expected that only users who really need them would use them, that would be a valid answer to my question, feel free to post it. I based my question on the premise of what I perceive as accepted behavior where I'm from, regardless of whether I agree with it or not.
– abl
23 hours ago
24
@fkraiem - that's a poor argument in real life. Take the average London tube train. 6 carriages, each with 3 doors; 16 priority seats per carriage, nearest to each door. That's 96 seats that would be left empty all the time just in case anyone needed one. The reason there are so many seats is that someone in need of one doesn't need to find the only available seat of a more accurately-devised number, they can get on any door.
– Tetsujin
16 hours ago
2
@Tetsujin "that would be left empty all the time" How so? If the people that need them use them, they won't be empty. In fact, if the proportion of priority seats matches the proportion of people needing them, they will be just as filled as the whole carriage. A London tube carriage has an average capacity of 140 people (70% standing, source), 16/140 is just above 10%, I'd argue that there is at least 10% of people that needs those seats and if the proportion seems right, they will be filled and should be left empty.
– zakinster
14 hours ago
6
I'm revising my figures - it appears the priority seats are in pairs, not 4's other than some specialist carriages - but I still see no argument that an empty seat should be left empty 'just in case'. 40 minutes with your face pressed into some big guy's armpit & someone else's rucksack shoved in your back every rush hour is no-one's idea of fun; why make it worse by essentially designating some of the available space as 'no-go, unless'.
– Tetsujin
14 hours ago
2
@zakinster Even if the proportion of priority seats matches the proportion of population that needs them, those people would somehow have to evenly distribute themselves among the carriages in order to maximize the use of the seats. The "correct" proportion of seats doesn't fix the problem, you'll still wind up with sometimes having too few priority seats and sometimes leaving them vacant. I agree with Tetsujin that it's likely they put in more seats than needed so that some can be made available, with the understanding that usually they'll be treated as regular seats.
– Nuclear Wang
11 hours ago